New 777 user crash landings

[Guest bomber]

Just bought the amazing 777 and tried a flight from Paris to Heathrow.I am not an expert but a reasonably experienced user on PMDG and Level D products. I was able to startup and fly right out of the box. I have tried this twice and both times on 3 green autoland the 777 has crash landed at Heathrow. It looked like the aircraft was becoming very unstable before landing and even in cruise mode it was swaying about much more than I am used to.On autoland I had set flaps and VREF as recommended by the CDU flight plan for my weight and landed once on 27R and then 27L; both times it tilted over just before landing and crashed onto the right wing.Either I have done something wrong and haven't RFM'd _well I haven't had time yet or this plane is exhibiting abnormal behaviour when it seems to be correctly configured.Any help would be very much appreciated,PS I have the CD version and have obviously not been able to update it yet to v1.1, but I wouldn't have expected htis all the same.thxbomber harris

[Guest]

Bomber:Check your air file. It should be very recent I think Apr.4. Another thing to look at is your CG. This plane seems to be very sensitive to the cg setting. When all is set the 777 flies like a dream. Near the runway on landing it sometimes seems a little too responsive but stll flyable.Hope this helps.RegardsRick

[Guest bomber]

Hi RickThanks for the suggestion.I have read the manual now and looked into many of the forum threads and I am more confident that I am doing the right thingsI think I have correctly programmed the load config with CoG (27% in this case with 28K Lb fuel on board and payload).Also ran the 1.1 updater. Flight was much smoother and it really handles well - that is until landing. I was landing EGLL 27R with 30 Flaps 139Kn on autoland - well my frame rates preclude a manual landing. After capturing localiser and glide slope nice and crisply it started rolling slightly which increased with descent and finally just above runway it rolled over to the right and crashed.I want to land this plane!!!!!!! What am I doing wrong! No other payware I have has ever done this - cf the incredibly stable Level D 767Please help this is very frustratingbh

[FOD 23]

BomberThere might be a hint in your frame rates - what sort of fps are you getting on finals and are you using Heathrow Pro?John R

[Guest bomber]

Frame rates may have been a problem at LHR but every one of my other payware planes land fine there in spite of crap FPS; even a recent 7 hour flight on a Level D 767 from KJFK to Heathrow in horrid English weather was fine. But anyway here's the latest. I actually read the manual (more) properly and restored the default KSEA Cessna flight.I also cleared all weather and went through the tutorial flight KSEA to KLAX. Frames rates shot up to 30-40 FPS (- shock) Apart fom a desperate rescue attempt when the FMC failed to get me on a landable approach to 24R and a rather fraught go around where the MCP would not obey my commands until I had reset the AP several times, I managed to lock back on to the localiser and made a beautiful landing at KLAX. It was worth the wait!! what a beast. The sound is frightening - do you think PSS will give us a smell of aviation fuel in the next update?Anyway none of the problems of my Paris-London flight ( I can see the Yanks gloating). So a bit more RFM on the beast's idiosyncracies and I should be all set up.thanks to allBH

[Guest]

BH:Hang in there. I have been modifying my flight plans to achieve a better approach angle(less than 30 deg) and a softer decent profile. I tried the SADDE6 approach to 24R at LAX with three different planes now. I overshot the runway with two of them. Flying with less load and less fuel and making sure the CG on the takeoff page matched what the load editor calculated seemed to help. I soon will be ready for a long haul. My successes have been with the help of the PSS crew and the other pilots here in the forum. The B777 is a beautiful plane and requires study and trial and error in my case to fly. In the past I had trouble at different airports and complained to the developer(not PSS) and was personally insulted as a result which inspired me to try PSS. As it turns out the problem was with the scenery and not the plane. On the advice of forum members I then tried the exact same settings at a different airport and touched down smoother than the babie's bottom. In my opinion the PSS 777 is well worth the money paid. The manuals made pleasant reading while waiting for the patch while at the same time trying to figure why someone named Norman likes flying Airbus's...lol. I have the A340 and will attempt that if and when I get proficient at the T7.As a sidenote...when I need inspiration I watch the video crafted by Jaguardo here in the forum. I dont have the knowledge that some of these people here do but will help whenever I can.RegardsRick

[Guest bomber]

Hi RickI was using British Airports scenery for Heathrow which is greedy for FPS but for LAX I only have MS default bleak scenery.I also get the impression that the flight plan they provide for the tutotial does not allow for the inaccuracy of simulations as compared to a real plane which can turn on a coin (ever tried the Carnasie approach to KJFK 13R in FS9?? - nor have I by the way).The 777's turn on the final waypoints from Fix01 to CF24R actually cuts off the corner and makes glideslope intercept very late hence why you might overshoot the runway - (I still have to work out how you engage GA and hence disengage APP). Best is to modify the plan as you say maybe in FS nav if you have it to ensure that these two waypoints are not cut of. Make Fix01 'turn not before' and this will give you a wider turn and longer time to stabilise the approach. I have noticed this happens on all payware planes not just this one.As you say the beast is beautifulBH

[FOD 23]

BomberGlad you got her down successfully at last.For interest I did a flight into Heathrow Pro last night with everything maxed out including 100% FS traffic. On the approach, fps was down to 7 - 8 yet the auto-ILS and landing was flown as advertised.Secondly, it was noted with the first release that the CF point is fixed far too close to the runway. Evidently some aircraft set it at 12 nm plus but certainly the 8nm at which PSS have set it is too close - it will only a smooth approach if your previous fix gives you a small intercept angle, <40 degrees, and you still have to be sharp in getting the speed back to VRef and the aircraft set up in the landing configuration - unless you like doing gear, flap checks and changing speeds whilst on the glidepath.BTW How do you make a fix "turn not before" for the FMC - that would certainly help??RegardsJohn R

[Guest bomber]

Hi JohnAfter a good landing at LAX, I tried a flight again from CDG to LHR (Just Flight's British Airports SE version) which went brilliantly until the descent. I generally control my descent (speed and altitude) in the approach phase manually and I got the speed and ILS loc absolutely fine as I have done every time. As soon as it captured the Glide Slope at 2500' the oscillations started rolling me left to right and increased as it descended. I decided to try to hand land it which at 5fps is not fun - well I got it down on the grass beside 27L and reported it to ATC (lol)Surely this is not ordinary behaviour, no other aircraft I have does that? It may be the scenery of course and the 777 is not sure where the runway scenery it's heading for is....???Any word from support on this?Absolutely agree about the FAFs supplied by some ILS approach plans. Best is to look it up in a real approach plate (see vatsim.net - they have most of the world or SimPlates). FS Nav is brilliant for looking up waypoint sna creating plans.As for 'turn not before Overfly' in the FMC, its invfact n FS Nav thing (look in the 'manual settings' for a given waypoint - I beleive that the tutorial flight for the 777 gives an FS NAv plan. If you export it to FS2004 format for importing to PSS you can do all that in FS NAv and it should export the LNAV setting for FSNav.If that doesn't work (I haven't tried this with the 777 FMC) just add an extra waypoint about 1-2Nm beyond the final turn point. You could also replace that final turn waypoint with a PBD (point bearing distance) say 2Nm on an arc on the same heading from that waypoint?BH

[FOD 23]

Bomber,Something very wrong here - particularly if you are only getting 5 fps at Just Flight's EGLL - this is Gary Summons basic version produced well before Heathrow Pro. I think that I still have it somewhere - I will see if I can get it installed and try and reproduce your approach.Perhaps you could give a summary of your kit and the add-ons you are running durinhg the approach?RegardsJohn

[Guest bomber]

Hi John,Thanks for your concern :-)Well 5fps is not unusual for my set up. I have a 2.53 P4 (2 year old) PC with 1Gb RAM, dedicated 120Gb partitition on 7200rpm drive for FS2004 under HyperOs Multi Boot Manager. Run XP Pro pared down to the boine for performance. Graphics ATI Radeon 9600XT.Add ons apart from British Airports:Ultimate Traffic - typically set at 20-40%Flight Environment with DXT texture cloudsDefault scenery on dense but not extremely denseReal Weather from FS9 only (not AS6)Maybe latest version of World Environment upgrade files (from Avsim file librbary)- for better lighting and tarmacFS Terrain mesh (covers Europe and USA) - it was not a problem at LAXThats it I think. As I said this does not happen with most other aircraft - having said that a Level D 767 I landed recently then tried to veer to the right on the same runway 27R at EGLL. So you may be right in suspecting the scenery. You can take a look at a Belarc read out later if you have insomnia...I'll also try other airports in the T7 time permitting - I do have another life in the 'real world' which means I cant fly all day every day when I like... I wish this technology had been around when I was younger and had more time...ho humregardsBH

[FOD 23]

Bomber,Thanks - I have installed British Airports EGLL and flown three ILS all into a normal autoland. Two were at my normal settings and I had 18-22 fps on touchdown; the last was with everything maxed out including 100% traffic - down to 10 fps on touchdown.Your PC should be ok - although I do not use world and flight environment. I would try another Brit Airports approach - EGKK or EGNM - with zero AI and see how that does. I believe that fps is probably a factor - I can reproduce the kind of landing/crash you are seeing but only by forcing FS9 into an unbelievably low fps!Good Luck - when you have time.John

[Guest bomber]

John,I've just done a good landing at LFPG (CDG) Paris in the 200LR on a reverse trip from EGLL. It landed fine flaps 30 at 129Kn. So scenery is a candidate. My FPS was always around 5-8 even here.I have a question about VNav though:I have never got the 777 to automtically start its descent at TOD - I have to do a FLChg then back to VNav. Also VNav descents tend to peter out at around 10,000ft and by the time I've realised it I am too high and also too fast because the ensuing rapid descent for the FAF puts me way above a comforatble glide slope speed. I had to go around at LFPG and it was OK after that. Having said that I guess real pilots are on manual and following ATC instuctions long before this anyway.Anyway a defrag and definitely a faster graphics card - maybe an early present for Xmas (anyone?) is definitely on the listThanks againBH