PSS 777 - My List of problem

[miguelpp 25]

Tim, I am with you, in almost evry point.However, climbing stage works OK, and the beginning of descent at TOD point , too. The descent itself ...that

[Guest Remotec]

Hi all,Does anyone else have these problems with the PSS 777? Note that I originally posted this on the Vatsim forum and Ive copied it with some ammendments (stuff I forgot to add first time!) as this is the correct forum. 1. Aircraft seems to climb at a very fast rate. Even 60 tons under max gross it can climb out at around 4000fpm. Surely this is way to much for a 290 ton aircraft. No real world experience so happy to take your judgement on this. Im told that this is the correct operation as the 777 has powerful engines.2. Flicking on the AP after take off gives some very erractic movements as it trys to intercept the heading. What I mean here is that as soon as you flick on the AP the aircraft just banks all over the place. For example if you are not using LNAV, you set your HDG to the runway heading. Say 1000ft off the ground you put the AP on. The aircraft just banks over one way until you hit the middle of the HDG knob. It should pick up preset heading.3. Overspeed seems very sensitive. Alarm bells ringing and caution flashing before it enters the red band on the speed tape. Im advised by PSS that the 777 is slippy however it is my belief that the overspeed warning comes in before the speed goes into the red. 4. FMC problems include: - Fix button doesnt work. - Pressing DEP/ARR and selecting ARR often shows ARRIVALS for your DEPARTURE airport. - Buttons dont often work e.g. pressing INIT REF doenst do anything. You have to press another button and then go back to INIT REF. Almost like it looses track of what screen you are on. Im told by PSS that FIX is not modelled. I think that in a future patch release it should be as its a very useful function.5. If you are given a direct by ATC and you move that waypoint up to the top of the FMC the Nav screen does not redraw properly. You often get an arc around the next way point which is not connected to anything. Also on LNAV doing this sometimes makes the aicraft forget where it going meaning you have to do a manual HDG change to put it in the right direction and then click LNAV again. In addition it often draws arcs from the centre fix for a runway into nowhere - often the opposite direction from where you are coming from. 6. VNAV descents dont work. Before T/D I reset my FMC alt to say 4000ft and leave it on VNAV. The aicraft then flys right through T/D and the only way to make it descend is to press FL/CHG (and by that time you need the speed brakes as you are too high). Im told by PSS that in the real world you have to tell the aircraft to descent. However on both the LDS and PMDG you get a handy "Reset MCP Alt" message and providing you have done this at T/D the aircraft starts descending. Could the 777 be different to the 737/767 or have LDS and PMDG got it wrong?7. Saving your flight in FSim - its hit and miss if everything gets saved. Sometimes you reload to an empty FMC, autopilot at standard etc and othertimes it fully reloads where you left off. Not sure how this is designed to be. I imagine in this day and age with products such as LDS767 saving everything my expectation would be that this product would fully save your flight "state" and everything else. 8. Nose wheel light does not move with the a/c nose wheel. 9. Altitude calls on descent often missing. I get 100 then the next is 30. No real problem however - 30 is enough for my flare 10. Hand flying on manual approach is like flying an F16. I really really really do not believe a 200ton aicraft with a massive wing span can roll that quickly. Its far to twitchy and you need constant adjustments to keep it in the right place. Compare this to the LDS763 and the PMDG744 - both big aircraft and not half as twitchy. 11. Ive been in the cabin of a real 777 and you cannot hear the flaps deploying. You can in the PSS flight deck which is way forward of the actual flaps. From the response I got on the Vatsim forum I sort of understand what PSS are saying in that they cant win as some complain its too quiet and some (me!) complain its too loud. I believe that despite what people want this should be made accurate.12. APU doesnt work. You click Start - nothing happens. This is verified on the air/elec displays - no green lines coming from the APU. This is a real problem for a "cold and dark" start up. Ive tried this a number of times. Ive once had it working after I landed somewhere - the rest of the time it simply does not work.13. Ground power also hit and miss. Some actions cause it to go off meaning you loose everything and back to square one. Ive found the only way to start the aircraft from cold and dark is to press CTRL+E for auto start. 14. Engines sound to noisy up front after real world 777 experience and could do with toning down a bit. Minor problem. 15. Flight dynamics - The engines seem to react to quickly to things e.g. if you press FL/CHG to descent the a/c starts descending pitch down very quickly (maybe around the 3500fpm mark). When it then comes to level out it descends at this rate to around 500ft before you required alt and sharply pulls the nose up. Hence the speed bleeds off to quickly and then the engines caine up to 100% N1 to counteract this and then spool down again. I think that this should be a lot smoother. What I mean is that the aicraft should start to level off in a more graduated fashion giving the engines time to react to the speed change so they dont fire right up to their maximum. 16. Ground handling - I noticed on a recent real world 777 flight that a little engine power was needed to get it rolling and then just above idle for the taxi. With the PSS777 you have to put some power on (say 40%) to get it moving (im talking total weight at around 270tons here) but bringing it back to say 35% N1 causes it to stop. I would have thought that an aircraft having that much energy and weight would have rolled for further. I find taxi-ing this aircraft to be a game of throttle up and throttle down. My real world experience tells me that taxi-ing is a much smoother affair (this may however be my skill level). I understand from PSS that FS2004 has some limitations that mean they may never get this totally accurate. Fair enough!Sorry for the long post but Id be interested to hear if other people have these problems?Thanks in advance,Tim

[Guest NormanB]

Tim,As per my post on VATSIM Forums:Hi Tim,Yes, the preference is on the PSS forum since I try to keep the two seperate. I fly and control on VATSIM for fun as an extension of my hobby.Briefly:1. The 110 + 115 engines produce immense amount of thrust and the climb figures are correct in that respect.2. Not quite sure what you mean - If anything I sometimes increase the bank angle rate thingie - stop me if I get too technical (Im an Airbus guy - shoot me!)3. Real 777 pilots advise that the 777 is one slippy bird and in real life is subject to overspeed.4. a. Not modelled. b. Click DEPARR, Index. Its there. c. SOunds like panel not correctly initialised. Please ensure to start FS from the default MSFS flight.5. Not personally seen but one tester was able to replicate once. You have to love computers Sad6. Remember I'm an airbus guy but without looking back in our forum, I seem to recall that the aircraft wont descend until you tell it to as per real world. The TD is but a marker/reminder.7. Yesterday I flew (offline) testing something. I didnt have time to complete the flight so saved it. When I reloaded that flight last night it was completely as I had left it.. All this data is stored and I'm happy to show you where if you email me.8. My daytime job is a dispatcher and Im pretty sure thats the way the lights are (ie fixed) in real world. If we have a 777 in today I will check. Altitude calls - cant say I have noticed nor has anybody else reported it but will check tonight.10. I wont say anything bad against another developer, either in private or public. The FDE guy and the real 777 pilots seem to think its 98% - the remaining 2% being FS limitations.11. Agreed however research showed that people wanted to hear this sound. On the flip side you dont hear much in a 777 flight deck yet people complain that its silent - cant win Im afraid!12. Does work and having just called someone they verified that the green line does show.13. I have never used Ctrl E - and since I get the engines running I must be doing something right. On an aside, in real world I see GPUs failing regularly albeit I am sure we didnt model these failures Smile14. See 11.15. See 2. For me its very smooth.16. This is the 2% I mentioned earlier (unless I took Rob up wrong on this when it was discussed)No need for the flame suit. As I said, the preference is to have these on the PSS forum since support is more than just me.

[Guest Remotec]

Norman,Thanks for adding the clarification from the Vatsim forum.1. Fair enough - as I say no real world experience.2. Before I take off from Gatwick I put the heading to 263. I then take off and hit the AP. The aircraft isnt actually in a HDG hold mode - or it shouldnt be. Yet it banks (most often) left until I depress the HDG select knob. Surely it shouldnt do this. And if it was in a HDG select mode it should maintain the 263 I have selected.3. The point here is that the concofony of warning sounds go off BEFORE the speed hits the red tape.4. a) Should be as its very useful and modelled on some of the other bench mark addon's. Personally I cant believe that this has been ommitted. :( I shouldtn have to. If I have the << LGKK DEP KJFK ARR >> I should be able to press (e.g.) Button 2R and get KJFK arrivals. c) Aircraft always started from "Create Flight" screen in FS.5. Ill provide screen shots next time I see it.6. I dont think that this is correct. Im positive the aircraft should descend when in VNAV mode, its past T/D and the ALT value on the AP display is less that the current alt.7. This is not working for me. Ive tested it a number of times. Sometimes it works other times it doesnt. In fact I used save in anger on the weekends Vatsim CTP. It did not return my panel to the state I left it in.8. Fair enough. Ill ask DJ - he'll know! :)---11. Fair enough. Id advise sticking with the accurate representation even if thats not what people want.12. This does not work.13. CTRL + E is the only way I can get the thing to start up.14. See 11.15. This I find to be very erractic. Again I have to real word experience so maybe I cant comment.16. Fair enough.Reading between the lines (and Im not trying to sound mega critical) it sounds like there are a lot of problems outstanding. I can understand however as a computer programmer myself the situation you are in. At work I get it all the time from the test team that "this doenst work" and I retest it and it works so I say "yes it does" and they say it doesnt and it goes around and around! :) However, this does not mean a problem does not exist and if someone things a problem exists then it should be investigated.I hope your not getting too annoyed with my constant problem finding :). Please believe me that the 777 is my favourite aircraft of all time and I really want this product to work. As I said before Im happy to work with you were possible to resolve some of these bugs and get this to an A1 product.I hope that PSS now dont get too involved in the development of the 757 and forget about this product. That would be a real shame and would knock the confidence myself and possibly others would have in future PSS products. Thanks in advance,

[Guest NormanB]

Tim,I can only afford a shortened answer since I am running back to work here.>4. Personally I cant believe that this has been ommitted. It was a conscious choice by the developer. During testing it was probably the most asked for feature, despite real crews telling us its not that big a deal.>:( I shouldtn have to. If I have the <<>LGKK DEP KJFK ARR >> I should be able to press (e.g.) Button>2R and get KJFK arrivals. I think you miss what I am saying. I dont know what screen you were (are) looking at but once the departure page is complete how else do you propose getting to the arrivals page?Here is a screenshot of me on the ground at Seattle and with the departure done I can now enter the arrival to Atlanta. I could have also done it arrival and then departure.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/147765.jpg>It did not return my panel to the state I left it in.Check C:Documents and SettingsMy DocumentsFlight Simulator Files - look at the saved flight files. Typically these are only a few KB each. The ones for the 777 will be 27KB or there abouts.>11. Fair enough. Id advise sticking with the accurate>representation even if thats not what people want.What the majority of people want is what sells though. Its like the membership at AVSIM is only a small fraction of the FS Population. Its like asking why the default 777 doesnt have (for example) synoptics.>12. This (The APU) does not work.I best scrap this picture then ;)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/147767.jpg

[Guest Remotec]

Hi again Norman,Thanks for posting the pictures.As far as Dep/Arr is concerned I am going to the Dep/Arr index page (sorry for misunderstanding what you said) and pressing Arr. For instance if I departed from EGKK or am still on the ground at EGKK my FMC screen after pressing ARR (and I have a valid route filed at this point) comes up "Arrivals for EGKK" and not "Arrivals for ". The only way you can bring up the arrivals is when you get closer to the destination, pressing INIT REF and DEP/ARR a few times eventually brings up the arrivals page.Ill check the 777 saved flight files. My thoughts here (as a programmer) are that it may well be *saving* the panel state data but is it reloading it???Put simply my APU does not work as it should. Ive had it work once.I would add that the membership at Avsim is a small but *representative* fraction of the FS community. Im not just making this lot up - these bugs do exist! I can appreciate from your position you can only see how it works for you on your machine. As well all know different systems have different configurations. So how can we reproduce these problems for you to see them? Are there any log files etc from my machine I could send you to help resolve them?Thanks for taking the time to look into the problems.

[Guest NormanB]

>c) Aircraft always started from>"Create Flight" screen in FS.Just out of the shower where I was thinking of this post. Do you mean you start FS and select the 777 from the create a flight menu? You really should start from the default MSFS flight before changing to the 777. A recent and very long thread on the main AVSIM forums said this very thing. Its not just a PSS thing either - our competitors say the same thing.Technically you should be able to save a flight based from having done this. For me though I always choose the default flight first. I live in hope that the next release of FS will get rid of this awful step.

[Guest Remotec]

Ok - I missed that post and you are correct I do start it from "Create Flight". Ill try what you have suggested in the future.Can you post a summary or link to that thread please? Id be interested in a technical reason why this has to happen.P.S. I start all competitors products from create flight and have no problems. Appreciate no two software packages are the same though. I agree that MS need to improve the SDK and 3rd party intergration which hopefully they will do on the next release.

[Guest NormanB]

Tim,>Im not just making this lot up - these bugs do exist! I canI don't for a minute think otherwise - it would be a very sad individual who would consider to make them up!Also, can you please check your VATSIM registered email address.

[FOD 23]

TimGoing back to your original #6As long as you have reset the MCP alt - and if you haven't you should get a reminder on the FMC as in the other aircraft you mentioned - the aircraft will automatically adjust speed prior to TD and then commence descent at the TD point.If you do not reset the MCP it will not start to descend and will continue on its merry way at the mcp alt!John R

[FOD 23]

TimDep/Arr SettingsI have found that if you set the dep runway and SID and then immediately select ARR, you will get the correct page. But, if after setting the dep runway, you then carry on inserting or amending the route through Activate and Execute and then return to set the arrival runway, you will not be able to. You then have to wait until sometime later - its usually availble by TC - to get the ARR pages.John R

[Guest kdundon]

In regards to the FMC showing the Departure arrivals, after reading Mike Ray's excellent "Flying the Boeing 700 series Flight Simulators" book and the one for the B747 it states in there that until you get to the halfway point the FMC will show the Departure airport's arrival runways and Stars when selected. This is because if you have a problem at takeoff and need to return to the airport you just select arrival and you get the Stars and runways for the departure airport with minimal inputs which in an emergency could be costly. Just my 2c worth but it appears the PSS 777 Fmc is correct in that respect. Ken

[Guest diajohn2]

To descend using VNAV, you not only set the MCP altitude but the legs page must show the levels you are going to. Otherwise it will just keep flying at the level in the FMC and ignore the MCP setting.Check those levels set in the FMC and you will likely find they are still set on your cruise altitude.

[DescendDescend 25]

If it is any guide flew a level D Airbus A320 at 50 tonnes (a few times. With no flex it climbed out at 5000fpm. I know a 777 is not an Airbus.

[robert young 2,897]

Hi Tim."1. Aircraft seems to climb at a very fast rate. Even 60 tons under max gross it can climb out at around 4000fpm. Surely this is way to much for a 290 ton aircraft. No real world experience so happy to take your judgement on this. Im told that this is the correct operation as the 777 has powerful engines."Please have a look at the manuals regarding cimb and take off thrust. The ABSOLUTE maximum take off thrust should be 100% N1 and the ABSOLUTE maximum climb thrust fully load should be 94%. As you know, the higher you go the more difficult it is to climb. In order for the 777 to be able to climb at more than 500 feet per minute when approaching optimum altitude for a given weight, it is logical and necessary that at lower altitudes climb rate is going to be a lot more. If you were to get much less than 3500 fpm initial max climb rate after take off you would barely achieve 200 fpm at FL310 in a fully loaded aircraft. It is to be expected then, that at very low altitudes you are going to get what appears to be healthy climb rates.Please have a look at climb tables for the 777 and similar aircraft. You will see that climb rate substantially falls away with altitudes above 25k due to the rarified air."10. Hand flying on manual approach is like flying an F16. I really really really do not believe a 200ton aicraft with a massive wing span can roll that quickly. Its far to twitchy and you need constant adjustments to keep it in the right place. Compare this to the LDS763 and the PMDG744 - both big aircraft and not half as twitchy. "Just one thing before a detailed answer: Have you set the general realism slider to Max (fully right)? My airfiles for the 777 require this setting for reasonable realism.In the patch beta stage, A current 777 pilot requested that the roll rate (which was substantially reduced compared to version 1) should be slightly increased as he felt it was a little slow. But we now have a very reduced roll rate compared with the original release version.Like Norman I never comment on other developers' aircraft as such a thing is bound to be interpreted wrongly. However I am confident that if you set max general realism in the aircraft menu the roll rates are reasonably close to the 777, and our 777 pilots have confirmed this."15. Flight dynamics - The engines seem to react to quickly to things e.g. if you press FL/CHG to descent the a/c starts descending pitch down very quickly (maybe around the 3500fpm mark). When it then comes to level out it descends at this rate to around 500ft before you required alt and sharply pulls the nose up. Hence the speed bleeds off to quickly and then the engines caine up to 100% N1 to counteract this and then spool down again. I think that this should be a lot smoother. What I mean is that the aicraft should start to level off in a more graduated fashion giving the engines time to react to the speed change so they dont fire right up to their maximum."This is not a flight dynamics issue but a programmed autopilot issue which is entirely independent from the core flight dynamics. All functions which alter the behaviour of the aircraft in relation to autopilot and auto throttle functions are issues NOT involving the air files but are connected with the custom routines imbedded in the FMC. However that said, FS generally is somewhat intolerant of attitude adjustments resulting from a steeper climb or descent of more than around 2000 fpm. This is to some extent the same in the real world of passenger jet flying, which is why most autopilots default to 1800 fpm. If you are exceeding climb or descent of more than 2500 fpm it is to be expected that the aircraft needs time to establish accurate a/p control."16. Ground handling - I noticed on a recent real world 777 flight that a little engine power was needed to get it rolling and then just above idle for the taxi. With the PSS777 you have to put some power on (say 40%) to get it moving (im talking total weight at around 270tons here) but bringing it back to say 35% N1 causes it to stop. I would have thought that an aircraft having that much energy and weight would have rolled for further. I find taxi-ing this aircraft to be a game of throttle up and throttle down. My real world experience tells me that taxi-ing is a much smoother affair (this may however be my skill level). I understand from PSS that FS2004 has some limitations that mean they may never get this totally accurate. Fair enough!"This is a fair point and a constant source of frustration for nearly all developers: Ground friction or drag is very much affected in FS by weight. You will find that a lightly loaded PSS 777 gets off the mark very easily with almost idle thrust. Any appreciable weight somewhat exaggerates drag on the ground, especially if you have flaps deployed. We have a problem here: whether to err on the side of light loads or heavy loads. One scuppers the other. We have to compromise.Kind Regards,Rob Young