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B757 Aircraft Systems Errors

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>Hi,>First off, I appreciate the effort put forth by PSS on this>project.>My question is whether this 757 is supposed to be as detailed>as let's say the Level-D 767 with respect to the systems. I'm>a systems guy. I like the plane to behave as much as possible>to it's counterpart in real-life. The systems that are>programmed in the Level-D are right on.>>I took a "test drive" of the 757 and found several errors. I>hate to call them errors, so let's call them some of the>things common to the 757 that were left out.>> - APU Run light does not flash twice to indicate prestart>BITE.> - APU EGT rise unrealistic during APU startup.> - No duct pressure drop when packs turned on, etc> - Trim Air Off light as well as Fltdk/Fwd/Aft Trim Air zone>lights illuminate when pneumatics turned off. This is an>error> - No Level B Aural warnings when Left sys hydraulics lost.>Works fine for Center and Right. R u guys trying to model in>the PTU, because I do notice 1250 psi on the Left Hydraulics>in this scenario.> - The flaps did not extend without hydraulics, which I was>happy about. But the Leading Edge/Trailing Edge lights on the>center panel did not illuminate for the handle disagree> - No EICAS messages for L&R Recirc Fans. > - I get Level B aurals on startup and shutdown. Unrealistic>and annoying> - During startup, N3 timing with relation to N2 unrealsitic.>They do not turn almost simultaneously.>>if this package wasn't meant to be as detailed as Level-D,>then disregard. But please le me know.>>Corey>Do you have a JAA/FAA or equivalent Private/Commercial/AT pilots license with airplane multiengine land priveledges, instrument airplane rating, along with high performance/high altitude/complex endorsements, radio operators certificate, and typed in a Boeing 757? Limitations on your type, required to wear glasses?I am assuming you have a Boeing 757 operating manual for all the variants PSS released? Have seen the actual systems operate and studied them in detail?I'm sure you may be correct about some of these things, but look at your post, and think about how other people are going to see it. This is a computer GAME. Since you want to be nit picky, and silly, and compare to the Level-D 767 I will point out a few flaws with it, besides the fact it is a 767-300.....and not a 757.The Level-D 767 has a less than standard (standard being set by PSS, then PMDG) FMC simulation as far as a navigation database goes, especially for TERMINAL PROCEDURES, and the FMC, if not the entire release was UNUSABLE for quite awhile after initial release. It was based very much on, and basically a refit for newer technology of the Wilco PIC 767, even if the LDS team claims otherwise. Again, the FMC, if it decided it was going to crash your sim during pre-flight, cruise or landing, it did, unannounced. I believe it has been fixed, not immediately after the release, but quite awhile afterwards, after having assured customers the issue was unique to their systems for awhile then admitting it was a rather large bugI apologize to the Phoenix team for discussing other commercial software on your forum space, delete if need be. I am just annoyed by all these "haters."

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I almost started this reply by telling you off, but I decided against that...it's way too early in the morning for that.But listen carefully. This is a forum where discussions are started. I posed a question to the members of PSS who had direct input into this release. I'm sure PSS is honored that you came to their rescue in what you thought was an attack on them. But try to learn to read more carefully. The 2nd sentence states:>My question is whether this 757 is supposed to be as detailed>as let's say the Level-D 767 with respect to the systems There are several payware packages available which I own: PMDGs B737NG, Level-Ds 767 and the PSS 777. They are all excellent, with their own varying degrees of realism. But the Level-D guys took it to another level with some of the things they added with respect to little quirks for the aircraft. For someone who works with these planes everyday, it was pretty cool to see those things. Is it necessary to enjoy the package? No. Thats why I asked the question. Maybe, just maybe...the guys made a mistake. They included the EICAS message for the emergency lights. Those emergency lights have nothing to do with the naviagtion of the aircraft. So maybe they missed the recirn Fans. But anyways, I'm going to deep into this with you. You'll probably misread this one to ;)Corey

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>I almost started this reply by telling you off, but I decided>against that...it's way too early in the morning for that.>>But listen carefully. This is a forum where discussions are>started. I posed a question to the members of PSS who had>direct input into this release. I'm sure PSS is honored that>you came to their rescue in what you thought was an attack on>them. But try to learn to read more carefully. The 2nd>sentence states:>>My question is whether this 757 is supposed to be as>detailed>>as let's say the Level-D 767 with respect to the systems >>There are several payware packages available which I own:>PMDGs B737NG, Level-Ds 767 and the PSS 777. >>They are all excellent, with their own varying degrees of>realism. But the Level-D guys took it to another level with>some of the things they added with respect to little quirks>for the aircraft. For someone who works with these planes>everyday, it was pretty cool to see those things. Is it>necessary to enjoy the package? No. Thats why I asked the>question. Maybe, just maybe...the guys made a mistake. They>included the EICAS message for the emergency lights. Those>emergency lights have nothing to do with the naviagtion of the>aircraft. So maybe they missed the recirn Fans. >>But anyways, I'm going to deep into this with you. You'll>probably misread this one to ;)>>CoreyOk.

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I would rather see no duct pressure drop with engine start up or packs on, than the situation on the LDS767 where all the duct pressure goes with packs on and engine start selected. You may say you should never be in this situation but:(1) in auto the pack should shutdown on engine start (it does in the LDS767, but duct pressure does not recover) and(2) even if it didn't some pressure would still remain, enough to crank the engine, albeit slower. The APU pumps out plenty of air for the both starter and the pack.PMDG had a similar fixed duct pressure model on their 747-400, and no-one complains about the realism of that add-on.The DreamFleet727 also had a similar issue, but to read their forum you would think the aircraft was meant to be like that. I submitted a few criticisms of the package and was torn to shreds by people who assumed because the DF727 did something it must be correct (they were wrong, but I could never have convinced them).There is a feeling amongst some simmers that Level-D, PMDG and Dreamfleet can do no wrong, whereas PSS always have to prove themselves. People will complain that the PSS 757 doesn't do this or that like the LDS767, forgetting that the 757 and 767 are quite different systems-wise. Different APU, packs, generators, pumps, etc.No add-on yet devised is perfect, you generally have to live with some minor limitations. One thing from your list that does concern me is that yet again warning sounds are not properly suppressed on start up and shutdown, as with the 777. I hope PSS fixes that, or I for one won't be buying their 757. Fingers crossed :)Kevin

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Corey, Im most def. on you with this. I have spotted these errors as well, hence my post "Long-ish Review". Thanks for putting more detail. I think this is more of a "Lite" than "Professional" title.Regards,Rob(And whats more, YES, I do have a full set of flight manuals for the 757-200/-300.)

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>(1) in auto the pack should shutdown on engine start (it does>in the LDS767, but duct pressure does not recover) and>(2) even if it didn't some pressure would still remain, enough>to crank the engine, albeit slower. The APU pumps out plenty>of air for the both starter and the pack.Not correct I'm afriad, 1) The 757 doesn't automatcally shut off he packs when in AUTO if the starter is selected to GND. The Pack remains on and running. AUTO refers only to its operating mode and is not interconnected with other major air users! This may occur on the 767 but certainly not the case on the 757's I drive! 2) Nope not the case either. The APU will supply air to both the pack and the starter but the APU will NOT be able to supply enough air to get the engine up to its safe starting speeds (N3 - 25%, N2 - 10%, N1 - rotating, EGT - <100C ). The APU will tend to get it up to about half that or maybe a little more but starting the engine at that speed would be expensive and detrimental to your career as a professional aviatorKris

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>>There is a feeling amongst some simmers that Level-D, PMDG and>Dreamfleet can do no wrong, whereas PSS always have to prove>themselves. People will complain that the PSS 757 doesn't do>this or that like the LDS767, forgetting that the 757 and 767>are quite different systems-wise. Different APU, packs,>generators, pumps, etc.>>KevinI see that too, and I see it in your post FlyCOJets -"My question is whether this 757 is supposed to be as detailed as let's say the Level-D 767 with respect to the systems.""If this package wasn't meant to be as detailed as Level-D (systems-wise), then disregard. But please let me know."There is a 'Holier than though' attitude creeping into Flightsimming based on what companies jets you fly. It is pathetic and quite frankly says more about the posters than the companies concerned.Your comparison is based on a product that has been patched to Service pack 3. Thats 3 patches after initial release. The 757 has been out less than a day. Was the Level-D 767 perfect on day one? - Nope, read their forums to see the many issues. Will the Level-D 757 be perfect on day one? - Nope, thats how software is. But I bet you wouldn't make a post like that on the Level-D forum would you? With PSS though it's fair game right?...Your comments seem intended to lead readers to believe that PSS doesn't care about such faults and will disregard them as they are a lesser company than Level-D. Argue about semantics all you what that is the underlying message in the two comments posted above.Why did you not simply list the faults and see how PSS responds, rather than adding the "if this wasn't meant to be detailed" tripe.?In defense of Level-D I can assure readers that their products are indeed superb. I own and enjoy the Level-D 767 and hold the company in high regard. It is the attitudes of a small minority of their customers that is the problem.

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I think some of you guys totally took this post wrong. This is NOT a bash on PSS. I did not expect a perfect aircraft on release. But do you know why there are Service packs? Because some users provide constructive feedback!!!! Stop being so friggin' defensive for PSS. And for the guys who keep mentioning the 752 and 763s being so different, pay particular attention to what I complained about: - APU Run light (doesn't matter which aircraft you are on) - APU EGT rise (both the 757-200 and 767-300 use the 331-200 APU's from Honeywell. Same APU ECU logic where the EGT shoots up to approx 700 deg and the start is in EGT Trim mode...hence the slow initial start) - Trim Air System (Both aircraft have Master Trim air and Trim Air PRSOVs) - Level B Aurals (EICAS logic is the same on both aircraft )KevinHI'm not expecting a total drop in duct pressure. It was just cool to see a slight psi drop when a laod was put on the pneumatics (eye candy I guess).And if these things aren't able to be produced because of a limitation - fine. But I wanted to here that answer from PSSCan someone from PSS answer when you get the chance. I'm sure you're busy with release issues. This (AGAIN) is not meant to be a Level-D vs. PSS thing.Corey

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>>>>(1) in auto the pack should shutdown on engine start (it>does>>in the LDS767, but duct pressure does not recover) and>>(2) even if it didn't some pressure would still remain,>enough>>to crank the engine, albeit slower. The APU pumps out>plenty>>of air for the both starter and the pack.>>Not correct I'm afriad, >>1) The 757 doesn't automatcally shut off he packs when in AUTO>if the starter is selected to GND. The Pack remains on and>running. AUTO refers only to its operating mode and is not>interconnected with other major air users! This may occur on>the 767 but certainly not the case on the 757's I drive! You are right, even on the 767 you have to turn them off to start engines other wise the compressor stall by lake of air...>>2) Nope not the case either. The APU will supply air to both>the pack and the starter but the APU will NOT be able to>supply enough air to get the engine up to its safe starting>speeds (N3 - 25%, N2 - 10%, N1 - rotating, EGT - <100C ). The>APU will tend to get it up to about half that or maybe a>little more but starting the engine at that speed would be>expensive and detrimental to your career as a professional>aviatorAbsolutely right>>Kris>Cyrille de LattreAsus P4P800/PIV 3 Ghz/2 Giga DDRAMATI X800 GT 256 MegWin XP SP2 / FS9.1 PSS Beta tester

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I don't think Corey meant anything negative about his post. The mentioning of Level D wasn't meant to be a "crack" against PSS. Much like many other customers I have professional experience on both the 757 and 767 aircraft. I can personally attest to the realism on the Level D and the PSS aircraft. As far as systems go, Level D set the standard when it was released. Sure, it had some problems like any other company, but it did infact set the standard. When a company produces an excellent product like Level D, customers will infact expect the same or a better product from any other company. This is just human nature. If something isn't quite right, people will make suggestions. We've got to have thick skin in this business. When it comes to the reviews, the reviewers will infact compare the product to previous products.I would think PSS or any reputable company would take customer's comments and suggestions into consideration as the company wants to be the best in the business. I really don't think this was an effort to bash PSS. We all know that PSS produces excellent flight simulation products and did an excellent job on the 757.A few minor inaccuracies in your last post.....the APU in both the 757 and 767 are infact identical. I know because I've replaced them. If you don't turn off the packs prior to engine start, you can get a hung or hot start. You'll find this on just about any airliner. The packs rob the pneumatic system of a huge amount of air. If you start the engines with the packs on, the pack off lights will illuminate during engine start because they are sharing the air volume with the starter. The pack flow is so low, it closes the low flow switch and turns on the light. -Dwayne

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Hello all,FlyCoJets I just wanted to commend you on not giving in on those replies and sticking on the message you're trying to post.I find it sad that in all these forums (Not just PSS's) there's a tendency to overprotect the developer. Good product come from feedback. If a developer gets defensive and does not accept critisizm, they'll never improve. And after the 777 release, I bet that there's little that "hurts" PSS's feelings.No I haven't purchased the 757 yet, yes I'm a real ATP and no I don't wear corrective eyeglasses yet. We all need to stop being so defensive.Xander

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To Dwayne, Xander & Mark.Thanks for the posts.Hopefully PSS will have something to say soon.Corey

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Hi,First off, I appreciate the effort put forth by PSS on this project.My question is whether this 757 is supposed to be as detailed as let's say the Level-D 767 with respect to the systems. I'm a systems guy. I like the plane to behave as much as possible to it's counterpart in real-life. The systems that are programmed in the Level-D are right on.I took a "test drive" of the 757 and found several errors. I hate to call them errors, so let's call them some of the things common to the 757 that were left out. - APU Run light does not flash twice to indicate prestart BITE. - APU EGT rise unrealistic during APU startup. - No duct pressure drop when packs turned on, etc - Trim Air Off light as well as Fltdk/Fwd/Aft Trim Air zone lights illuminate when pneumatics turned off. This is an error - No Level B Aural warnings when Left sys hydraulics lost. Works fine for Center and Right. R u guys trying to model in the PTU, because I do notice 1250 psi on the Left Hydraulics in this scenario. - The flaps did not extend without hydraulics, which I was happy about. But the Leading Edge/Trailing Edge lights on the center panel did not illuminate for the handle disagree - No EICAS messages for L&R Recirc Fans. The Emergency lights EICAS is programnmed. Just wodnering if these were missed. - I get Level B aurals on startup and shutdown. Unrealistic and annoying - During startup, N3 timing with relation to N2 unrealsitic. They do not turn almost simultaneously.If this package wasn't meant to be as detailed as Level-D (systems-wise), then disregard. But please let me know.Corey

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Many airliners have packs which auto shut-off during engine start. Airbuses for example. My systems knowledge of the 757/767 dates from way back, when they first entered service, so I'm happy to stand corrected on all the details.Typically, pack valves are electrically signalled and pneumatically powered, so that type of pack really does close when supply pressure is low, not just signalling low flow.Just because the physical part is the same (as with the 757/767 APU) does not necessarily mean it will work the same in the two aircraft. Digital controllers are often pin-programmed to suit multiple types. Also as the pneumatic demands of the 767 are very different to those of the 757 I'd expect the APU to operate differently in the two aircraft.Kevin

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