Now the 757 is out...

[EngineRoom 205]

I've been one of the pre order customers who have stayed quiet during the run up to the 757 release and the subsequent events. I thought it was better to let PSS get on with the job at hand. However, now the 757 is out I have a few things I'd like to say.I'm a longtime PSS customer and I've been purchasing their products since FS2000. I was a pre order customer for both the 777 and the 757, what I'm about to say is in no way meant to "bash" PSS. In fact, I think PSS' customer support is very good, and I think it's commendable how the PSS team have worked very hard to get the 757 problems sorted.The 757 that was released to pre order customers last week had several major issues, most notably for me at least the "cold and dark CDU" problem, and the very poor framerates. These issues were noted by customers on the forum here almost immediately after release. How were these issues not picked up by the beta team? Did the beta team even have the release version of the 757? Did they use the same online installers to download the very same files the customer receives? Perhaps it would have been prudent to wait a day or two and use the beta team to test the download procedure and product the customer would be receiving.I'm not bashing PSS, I just can't understand how such major flaws got through what we are led to believe was a very thorough testing programme.I also have one or two other complaints. I received no email notification that the 757 had been released. From what I gather no other pre order customers had received notification via email. It would have been nice to have been informed via email that our new 757 was ready for download. I would also have liked to see the general release delayed for a further 24 hours to give pre order customers the chance to download the fixed 757. After all, our money has been sitting in PSS' bank account for some weeks now, a gesture from PSS recognising this fact would have been nice.If I were at the helm of PSS I would be asking some serious questions now.Perhaps look at abandoning the pre order programme. After pre ordering two PSS products now I see no real benefit from my perspective as a customer. Both times the initial release available to pre orders was seriously flawed and both times we had to wait for an updated version to rectify these flaws, defeating the point of "beating the rush".I would also take a long hard look at the beta test procedures. This is the third release now that has gone out with fairly major issues that were picked up by customers immediately after release.Once more, I'm not bashing PSS, I have purchased pretty much all of their products since FS2000, and I will continue to support them. I'm just making observations from my perspective as a customer in the hope they will be noted by the PSS team and will be taken into consideration for future releases.Finally, thanks to the PSS team for finally giving us a good 757 for FS9, and your work to rectify the 757 problems is much appreciated.Cheers,Nick

[Guest Nick Bartolotta]

>The 757 that was released to pre order customers last week had>several major issues, most notably for me at least the "cold>and dark CDU" problem, and the very poor framerates. These>issues were noted by customers on the forum here almost>immediately after release. How were these issues not picked up>by the beta team? Did the beta team even have the release>version of the 757? Did they use the same online installers to>download the very same files the customer receives? Perhaps it>would have been prudent to wait a day or two and use the beta>team to test the download procedure and product the customer>would be receiving.I think Norman posted somewhere on these forums that there was a miscommunication with who uploaded the files and in turn, an earlier version was uploaded (someone from PSS correct me if I'm wrong).

[Guest Pro-Sim]

Very fair points Nick, and VERY fairly put.What is the point is pre-ordering if you get no benefit? I wholly agree, those that pre-ordered should have been emailed and told their purchase was ready. As for the bugs, yes, that seems a PSS thing these days. Lot's of pretty serious bugs at the outset. No-one is denying theat people are working hard to correct them, and pretty shortly after release too which is encouraging.But it would be better to address the heart of the problem - why do the same types of issues (such as CDU data entry delay) occur release after release ?I also think there is some real stubborness going on at PSS... How many times have people complained that PSS continue to release aircrafts with absolutely no environmental sound effects in the cockpit! How difficult is it to add a gauge that sets of a whirring electrical / conditioning noise when the battery is switched on ... (and a further whine noise when the APU is switched on).These touches make a huge difference to the simming experience, and yet once again, PSS have released the 757 with that deadly silence when the panel is loaded..... It makes the experience of setting up the panel for a flight, more like a game, than an absorbing sim, like some add-ons. ("the" 767 is probably best in this area).Come on PSS, I know you British and thus resistant to change (coming from a fellow Brit) :-) but get with the programme and start to recognise these things!! There are fantastic sounds on AVSIM that could be used for enviromental effects in the T7 and 757 and for most the authours would be chuffed to bits to be asked by PSS to use their sound effect.It's all been said before - it would be so easy to add the wonderful sense of sound and realism to these pretty sterile panels.I would add that the engine sounds on both the T7 and the 757 are excellent in my opinion, nice and heavy and metallic sounding...which is another reason why it's so dissapointing to have silence until the engines are started.

[speil 5]

The British are also very civil. I am not. I am livid and also a long time customer with very similar demographics. I have bashed them on my website. We have been treated poorly with not so much as an apology. The whole experience was nightmarish; to say the least.Yes, PSS produces above average work. But, talent is no excuse for biting the hand that feeds.Stephen A. Peil

[kevinh 409]

quote/ "(and a further whine noise when the APU is switched on)." /unquoteWhy do people continue to expect an APU sound when it's not audible on the flight deck? I've never been on a 757 flight deck, but you certainly can't hear the APU in the forward cabin. It's like the flap movement whirring noises, provided apparently due to customer demand, when in fact all you can really hear is the mechanical sound of the lever moving through the gate.The 757 is something of a hybrid, but with a true 'glass' cockpit there is much less electrical whine to be heard than on an aircraft with 400 Hz AC powered indicators. Perhaps PSS should add some background ambience, a little EFIS CRT cooling fan noise and some airflow noise when the packs are on. Don't overdo it please!Kevin

[kevinh 409]

Stephen, I guess you are American, but many Americans I've met are more civil than us Brits, especially when complaining.What you have to remember is that PSS, PMDG, LDS, etc are not normal commercial suppliers but enthusiasts like you and me doing this in their spare time. If you buy something from a professional retailer you could expect more professional delivery, but you wouldn't get the individual attention PSS, etc, can give you. Especially Norman, who has the patience of a saint :)The basic problem this time seems to have been configuration control, which should be straightforward enough to deal with, except the team appear to be spread about geographically which must make things difficult. However it is understandable that these things happen and as long as they are addressed promptly, no one should get upset.It does seem strange though to spend weeks beta testing the product, yet not have the final release candidate uploaded to the servers and verified before launch. Also some issues which should have been spotted in beta appear to have slipped through. Maybe PSS should review their beta testing strategy as the same kind of things keep being missed.Kevin

[Guest wjerla]

Well, I've only had Flight Simulator for a couple of months now, so this is the first payware aircraft I've preordered / purchased when it first launched. First, I'd like to believe that the folks at PSS have learned their lesson about downloading the files from the website before releasing to the public so they can verify that the installer all works beforehand. This, at least, was an issue (improper files in the initial installer) that should not have happened.Second, in regards to the preorder idea. Let's face it -- when you preorder a videogame in a store, you don't really get anything (well, sometimes you may get a little token something, or maybe $5 off your next purchase) except a guarantee that you will get the product as soon as it releases. If there were preorder customers this time that were not able to download the 757 because of bandwidth issues, then I would suggest that PSS either obtain more bandwidth, or give the preorder customers more time to download, or limit preorders. This would be in keeping with the general retail practice of ensuring they have enough copies of a game to go to all their preorder customers (by ensuring the means exists for all the preorder customers to obtain the full product).Finally, I would like to recognize the folks at PSS for a gallant effort in rectifying the issues after they became obvious. I will admit, being my first PSS purchase, I was a little worried with the first download, when the installer wouldn't even complete without an error. And then the CDU issues? Yes, I was concerned. However, less than 24 hours later, I was able to download the fixed version, and was happily flying my 757. This is not an attempt to bash PSS, as a lot of people seem to be doing. I am simply providing my thoughts, as a first-time paying customer, to the folks at PSS and I hope they realize this.Thank you,Bill

[RedSpinnaker 35]

>What you have to remember is that PSS, PMDG, LDS, etc are not>normal commercial suppliers but enthusiasts like you and me>doing this in their spare time.Kevin, you are wrong. PSS, PMDG, LDS, etc ARE in fact commercial suppliers. They are providing a product at a cost to the public. Regardless if they are doing this in their spare time, or are enthusiasts, at the end of the day, they walk away with OUR money.It's quite analgous to someone who has a full-time job, yet desides to run a home-business as well. That's all these add-on providers are, home-businesses. Granted they are normally much more organized, incorporated, structured, but they are still a business.-Dan Everette

[RedSpinnaker 35]

I

[kevinh 409]

Dan,Sorry but there is a difference, if not in legal terms. PSS et al are basically a cottage industry. Yes, they take your money and you have a right to your product, but you cannot realistically expect the same kind of slick professionalism as if you bought the product from a major software supplier. You must expect to see mistakes, delays, last minute problems, etc.It's common for major software houses to release bugged games, then patch after patch over a long period, until they get fed up with supporting it. Some of these games never get bug-free, so in some senses the support offered by PSS is greatly superior and more personal.People demanding their rights, refunds, etc (as occurred frequently after the 777 debacle) only show themselves up as somewhat immature and unreasonable. You will, eventually, get what you paid for, i.e. the product as specified by PSS. This might not include everything you think necessary (I have a few doubts myself) but that's another story :)BTW I have nothing to do with PSS, I just think they get a raw deal compared to PMDG, LDS, etc (who have all had experience of buggy initial releases).Kevin

[RedSpinnaker 35]

Although I do not know how PSS is legally defined as a business, there is still an expectation of at least some level of competence. I am not expecting a bug-free product. As a matter of fact, I think a bug free product is impossible given the sheer number of system configurations out there. However, I

[bob34 124]

Guys:It's a flight sim airplane.Although all have the right to criticize as much as we do praise, let's put this in perspective.It's a piece of recreation software made by enthusiasts working their tails off while having hundreds of customers asking "when do we get it?"... and a competitor across the net developing the same model.Being hindsight perfectionists at this point, while the PSS team has been working day and night to make us happy, will just be a distraction. Let's let the dust settle and see what's left after that...

[Guest howard500]

Hi,I must confess that I have bought dozens of aircraft for FS in the past, and normally I never come back to the developers to protest in any way. Most of the time I accept im running a risk when buying a product of this nature and 80% of the time I am let down and have the feeling I have wasted my money. But this is an accepted risk. After many years I have boiled down to four aircraft that I will full heartedly praise and recomend, those being the PMDG744, the LDS767, the F1 ATR72-500 and the CoolSky MD-80. Now, I hope no one gets mad at me for saying this because it is meerely my opinion, and i am after nothing, zilch... However what has goten me to write a negative opinion on this PSS forum is the fact that I am a paying costumer with the right to do so and I feel misled by the marketing and final 757 product. Allow me to expalin. I have used PSS aircraft in the past and was disapointed, but this is my own fault, no one elses. After thinking that that was the end of my relation with PSS, I heard about the 757 project, which was presented with the "PRO standars" sale pitch and priced in the range of PMDG and Level-D products. So I fell for it. Truth is, the realease was frankly a joke. The initial product had issues that can not be accepted as normal, I dont expect a flawless initial product from anyone but come on... they ranged from no CDU to a FSVIPC downgrade! In all honesty this is simply not acceptable. The aircraft itself is avarege; system funcitionality and interaction are not up to standards, the sounds are inexistent and the general feel of the aircraft is fake, there is no immersion factor. Just to give and examplt I simply cannot beleive the autobrakes do not disconect automatically after landing when the pilot hits the toe brakes. I read on the formus that the PSS response was something along the lines of "its an FS limitaion" and it is exaclty this that ticks me off. Gentelman, the guys at PMDG and LDS find a way, why cant you? Along the same lines the fact that V speeds are not read out aparently becasue "PSS does not sell you an F/O" is the same type of issue that drives me to write this post. Other examples are inconsistency and lack of feeling. The APU "RUN" light comes on when it feels like it, sometimes the APU is running and its there, sometimes its not. The engine start sequence feels fake and accelerated and the display screens are cluttered. Simply put, the 757 is not the "in depth" simulator PSS sold and this links to the pricing and marketing issue. I am sorry to say that the 757 is priced and made to look like a serious competitior against the LDS767 or the PMDG744 and this is simply not the case. The "PRO" slogan should simply not be used and the pricing is not acceptable for the end product. Seriously, the LDS767 is 39Euros and the PSS757 is 44Euros! and from the bottom of my heart I have to say that the 767 is lightyears ahead of the PSS757 both in seriuos simualtion aspects like in systems, flight dynamics, sytem interaction, soundset, failure options and more trivial options like pushback or an active FO options and a long, long etc. So after this long post I hope you understand that my intention is no other than to lay down my opinion and the feeling i have that I have been ever so slightly cheated and most certainly let down. Again, if you find the 757 outstanding by all means fly and enjoy it all you want but please dont shout at me as I lay my opinion with no ill intent for anyway. Regards from one ex PSS costumer,Alonso

[philbrown 9]

I can remeber one of the PSS guys saying that we would "definetely have the 757 in August". A day or two before September and it seems to have been rushed out of the door to meet that promise.I decided not to purchase the 757 after the problems I had with the 777, just to see how things went, and am quite surprised that more or less exactly the same thing has happened with the 757 release as it did with the 777 release.I am very interested in getting this 757, after learning that the LDS 757 will only be FSX compatible. Fair enough, but I'll be waiting until all my other addons are FSX compatible before upgrading, which, in the case of PMDG at least, may take up to 5 months.I just hope this 757 is patched in a quicker time frame than the 5 months it took before the 777 saw an update.And to the price - it's more expensive than the LDS 767.

[Guest NormanB]

Phil,Whilst we hoped to have it out in August software as always will slip. That said, it was only by a day and it wasnt a rush.Now that the FSX NDA has been lifted, I can say that I and others have been happily playing with the 757 in FSX for some time, albeit with modifications. Its not yet 100% but its not a million miles from it either. In regards to the LDS product - they have yet to announce a pricepoint (or infact any real info). Remind me again - How many models do you get for the same price (a few pence/cents difference)?As mentioned in our forum guidelines - product comparisons are not welcomed here. Neither we, or many other developers like seeing products knocked.