Cycle 0704 KATL STARS

[vonmar 123]

KATL STARSERLIN2 is ending at NOFIV in the procedure.It actually ends at IGEBE.Need to add FANEW, HAVAD and IGEBE

[Guest staang]

>ERLIN2 is ending at NOFIV in the procedure.>Need to add FANEW, HAVAD and IGEBECongrats Vaughan. You found a mistake in the USFIF. The missing waypoints are in the database but they are coded wrong. This wrong leg coding caused them to be rejected by my program. I have to write some code to correct the error and rerun KATL, in a while. I'll also write NGA to let them know about the error.Thanks for your diligence.Terry

[vonmar 123]

Hi Terry,I found why there are duplicate waypoint displayed when the procedure is loaded. Mentioned it yesterday.For example: STAR "CANUK FOUR" for KATLThe main STAR legs are defined by your program as,SINCA, then several waypoints, last waypoint = HESPI This is OK.The transition AMG is defined as,AMG, then several waypoints, last waypoint = SINCA* this last waypoint here SINCA , already is part of you main STAR and should be omitted here. Should not be part of the transition.First load this STAR, and the AMG transition into Level-D.The FMC will display the "duped" waypoint SINCA and it will then have to be deleted from the FMC display.Other transition have the same problem.I removed the SINCA data lines form the transition portion of the procedure, saved it, and reloaded into Level-D and ther were no duplicate waypoints displayed.

[Guest staang]

Hi there Vaughan>AMG, then several waypoints, last waypoint = SINCA>* this last waypoint here SINCA , already is part of you main>STAR and should be omitted here. This is a condition of the USFIF data but I have filters in my program to find and fix this duplication. It seems to have failed though. I have rewritten them and the dups are out of the picture again. I'm still working on the USFIF error you found involving the runway transition problem too. I'll put an update on my site once I'm done.ThanksTerry

[vonmar 123]

>Hi there Vaughan>>>AMG, then several waypoints, last waypoint = SINCA>>* this last waypoint here SINCA , already is part of you>main>>STAR and should be omitted here. >>This is a condition of the USFIF data but I have filters in my>program to find and fix this duplication. It seems to have>failed though. I have rewritten them and the dups are out of>the picture again. I'm still working on the USFIF error you>found involving the runway transition problem too. I'll put an>update on my site once I'm done.>>Thanks>TerryTerry, I am a little foggie here, I do not remember the runway transition problem? Or, was it the use of <.VRI> , <.INT> or DIR to define all of them ?In the above post, I mentioned 3 waypoints missing from a STAR? Was that what you were talking about? Those are missing from the main STAR, not from a runway transition.Did you see my short update that I posted this morning on the the SIDS (ZIP file from your site) that I reviewed. I posted it with other replies to the KATL SIDs subject line. In that one I mentioned that the COKEM3 SID way missing from the ZIP file D/L.

[Guest staang]

>Terry, I am a little foggie here, I do not remember the runway>transition problem? Or, was it the use of <.VRI> , <.INT> or>DIR to define all of them ?Is at top of this thread.>>ERLIN2 is ending at NOFIV in the procedure.>>It actually ends at IGEBE.>>Need to add FANEW, HAVAD and IGEBE>one I mentioned that the COKEM3 SID way missing from the ZIP>file D/L.Nope, didn't see it in this thread. Getting late here but I'll check it out tomorrow.Terry

[vonmar 123]

Terry,Take PECHY ONE STAR e.g.Your program wrote it:CULME, several waypoints, ending at WOTBASTAR transitions are from SPAYD and HVQNo runway approach transitions here.The STAR is common to all runways as written.Take ERLIN TWO STAR now.Your program should have written it:ERLIN, several waypoints, ending at IGEBENo runway approach transitions here.The STAR is common to all runways as written.To correct the ERLIN2 STAR:Just manually add three missing three waypoints to the ERLIN2 STAR and that's done.Maybe your program way looking for runway specific transitions stuff from (where you get data to decode) I do not know.But if it was, then STUTZ would be the last STAR waypoint for landing/approaches for East runways like 08L and IGEBE would be the last STAR waypoint for landing/approaches like 26L. Actually, if I were writing the STAR for ERLIN2:I would have set the STAR anchor at RMG, the common pointfor all the star transitions.Written it:RMG, several waypoints, ending at IGEBE.Add the star transitions e.g.STAR transition MEM:MEM, DEVAC, CALCO (leaving out RMG) because it isalready part of the main star.That is why I was confused about your reference toa problem I reported about a runway transition. As far as I can tell, your program is writing the Runway, Hold, Runway Approach, and Runway Approach Transitions just fine.

[Guest staang]

Hi there Vaughan>I mentioned that the COKEM3 SID way missing from the ZIP>file D/L.I don't know about this one. I am looking at COKEM3 on the ND right now and can step through the waypoints. It's working OK for me. I just redownloaded the LDS_Update_A.zip and it has the COKEM3 code in it.Terry

[Guest staang]

>Take PECHY ONE STAR e.g.>Your program wrote it:>CULME, several waypoints, ending at WOTBA>STAR transitions are from SPAYD and HVQ>No runway approach transitions here.>The STAR is common to all runways as written.That is how the USFIF wrote it. Vector transitions can't be preprogrammed. These are somewhat different in that WOTBA and IGEBE sort of get the aircraft into position on the correct side of the airport. I'll add in the "vector" runway transitions but neither one will be pretty and line-up the aircraft for the approaches. That's what the vectors do. I'm guessing you will wind up with disconnects at WOTBA and IGEBE but at least when landing Westerly it will get rid of DOEVR through WOTBA on the ND. >Take ERLIN TWO STAR now.>Your program should have written it:>ERLIN, several waypoints, ending at IGEBE>No runway approach transitions here.>The STAR is common to all runways as written.Same as above.>Actually, if I were writing the STAR for ERLIN2:>I would have set the STAR anchor at RMG, the common point>for all the star transitions.I'm thinking that the common legs for this STAR are RMG through STUTZ. The Easterly runway transition would be STUTZ and WOTBA. The Westerly runway transition is STUTZ through IGEBE.>That is why I was confused about your reference to>a problem I reported about a runway transition. Except for the NATS and my hand written procedures my data comes in USFIF format and sometimes it writes things differently or has errors. Therefore it may refer to runway transitions when on a chart it might not be identified as such. In these cases they just left off the runway transitions because they are vectors. At ERLIN2 the landing East runway transition starts at STUTZ and is then vectors to the approach. For landing West one continues to IGEBE (maybe) and then it's vectors to the approaches heading West. In this case I don't mind creating a "false" runway transitions because I can stop them at WOTBA and IGEBE and they put one on the correct side of the airport.Terry

[downscc 1,327]

>Actually, if I were writing the STAR for ERLIN2:>I would have set the STAR anchor at RMG, the common point>for all the star transitions.>I'm thinking that the common legs for this STAR are RMG through >STUTZ. The Easterly runway transition would be STUTZ and WOTBA. The >Westerly runway transition is STUTZ through IGEBE.Please don't combine transitions at the common point... you would be eliminating duplication but then a pilot couldn't fly the STAR without transitions, which is done (more so on SIDs).Just my two cents....

[vonmar 123]

Terry,My mistake, I typed it wrong when I did the search!It is there.Sorry about that.

[vonmar 123]

Terry,Both PECHY1 and ERLIN2 are RNAV STARS. No vectors needed here with RNAV. Just waypoint to waypoint. Why does your data source use vectors or whatever to define a STAR? PECHY1 and ERILIN2 have similar structures on the plates. They both bring you into the East or West landing flow for Controllers vectors or instructions for an RNAV/ILS approach.My point was that:PECHY1 arrival plate and your programs outputs are correct. All RNAV waypoints are there.However, ERLIN2 plate has three more RNAV waypoints than your procedure file has.I figured your program just missed them and all you would have to do is manually add the three missing RNAV waypoints because the RNAV STARS do not use vectors.I was only talking about STARs here, not about the runways main approach or it approach transitions.As far as I can tell, all of your runway transitions/approaches link up well to the STARS.

[vonmar 123]

Dan, I do not understand this.I went and loaded a flight plan (any direction into KATL) into the FMC.Then I selected the PECHY STAR. All the waypoints were there.So, I could now join the ERLIN arrival at any of the inbound STAR waypoints.I could fly the STAR without entering a STAR transition.But, if I wanted to join one of the published STAR transitions, I could load it .... then have to delete the duplicate waypoint (CLUME) from the FMC.My whole point here was that, if using a "published" STAR and optionally one of the "published" STAR transitions, they should load into the FMC without duplication of waypoints. They should just naturally join together.In my reading on creating STARS I have never seen mention of entering the the first STAR (anchor/common) waypoint also into each transition as its last waypoint. It just creates a dupliccate FMC entries.

[Guest staang]

Hi Dan>>I'm thinking that the common legs for this STAR are RMG>through >STUTZ. The Easterly runway transition would be STUTZ>and WOTBA. The >Westerly runway transition is STUTZ through>IGEBE.>>Please don't combine transitions at the common point... you>would be eliminating duplication but then a pilot couldn't fly>the STAR without transitions, which is done (more so on>SIDs).I'm not following you Dan. Which transition are you concerned with. I'll start over another way. ERLIN2 would have BWG, BNA, SALMS and MEM as enroute transitions which would all end at RMG. RMG would not actually be part of the transition though, it only stops there. Then there would be the common part starting at RMG and ending at STUTZ. Both these starting and ending points would show up in the STAR. The two runway transitions would start at STUTZ and end at WOTBA or IGEBE. The STUTZ waypoint would not actually be part of either transition. By my description it seems there is duplicate waypoints but there are not. I'm describing them as would be written in USFIF to get the three parts of the STAR. You should be able to select the STAR, an enroute transition and runway transition.Terry

[Guest staang]

>Both PECHY1 and ERLIN2 are RNAV STARS. No vectors needed here>with RNAV. Just waypoint to waypoint. Why does your data>source use vectors or whatever to define a STAR? If you read the STAR instructions they say when landing East or West to expect vectors to final approach. Those are the vectors I am talking about. When this is stipulated I add in the Vector command. Sometimes, though, there are Lost Communications procedures that I can use to help line up the plane and even, sometimes, eliminate the vector command. I might try to do that here.Terry