FS9 Flight Dynamics, a complicated issue..

[Guest Douglas K]

Absolutely! I have a USB set from CH Products as well as an older Thrustmaster Elite unit. I gave up on that twist grip nonsense long ago, although I still use my Sidewinder JS for the combat sims (rudder axis disabled).In all fairness to IL-2, its ONLY with the "realistic takeoffs and landings" switch set to the on position that you will experience the cicumstances that I described, but that only reinforces my point!Edit- doubt if I could successfully fly an RC aircraft without major damage Larry, so I'll defer to you in that regard. If we are talking FS aircraft pitch behavior, the first thing I noticed about MS flight Sim aircraft (and the first thing any real pilot comments on when trying FS) is the nose bobbing up and down as if it were attached to a spring! Doubt its my setup though, only happens with the defaults. That Lear 45 what a scary airplane!

[LAdamson 240]

If you've been around here long enough; perhaps not.......... I've commented over the years, that the Lear is very scary in pitch. It's the default from FS2K which was lousey then! :) It's also been demonstrated that commercial pilots with 20,000 hours couldn't control MSFS without PIO because of the differences in changing from a regular cockpit to someones home P/C setup. I myself have taught a commercial pilot the "fineness" of R/C flight because he also suffered from a horrible case of PIO in R/C.When it comes to ALL the defaults with exception of the "Lear" :), I've found them all controllable in pitch during climbout. My biggest beef, was that they feel like wet cement in pitch & roll. The 3rd parties improved the dampening qualities. As to handeling, I believe it's because I'm use to my setup, R/C flight, and "nimble" fingers due to aerobatics in a Pitt's S2B and experimental catagory aircraft. BTW --- I own an RV6. These are touchy aircraft in their own right, but fly like miniture fighters! Have also rode backseat in a civilian P-51D :). Wouldn't have been the one from Heber, Ut. that you've been in, would it?L.Adamson

[Guest]

Excuse me, Mr. Freimuth, I was reading you're comments, and have read you're flight dynamics tutorial, and I have a qustion: What are all the projects you have done for FS? I've looked high and low for you're work, with minimum results. I trust very much you're knowledge of the Dynamics engine, and would like to populate my FS with you're work. (specifically, I looked for the Cessna dynamics upgrade mentioned above, with no luck)Thanks

[Guest Douglas K]

>when it comes to ALL the defaults with exception of the "Lear" , I've found them all controllable in pitch during climbout.As to handeling, I believe it's because I'm use to my setup, R/C flight, and "nimble" fingers due to aerobatics in a Pitt's S2B and experimental catagory aircraft. BTW --- I own an RV6. These are touchy aircraft in their own right, but fly like miniture fighters!Have also rode backseat in a civilian P-51D . Wouldn't have been the one from Heber, Ut. that you've been in, would it?

[Guest Ron Freimuth]

>Excuse me, Mr. Freimuth, I was reading you're comments, and >have read you're flight dynamics tutorial, and I have a >qustion: What are all the projects you have done for FS? >I've looked high and low for you're work, with minimum >results. A year ago I got disgusted with MS' no fix policy on FS2K2 and had my C172SP archive removed from the AVSIM library. However, many people have it and it's fine with me if they email them to anyone who wants it. I also did a lot of flight models for PFG, they are still avalabe at the new PFG site. But, it looks like PFG is not doing anything more. Perhaps Mr.Adamson would send you the small 172SP archive. Currently I have flight dynamics for five AC in the pipeline. Two for EagleSoft, Two for DF, and one T-37B project. Developed mainly for an FS training aid for new T-37 pilots, but most of it will be available to all. I also hack many FD files done by others, but don't make them generally available. I spend a lot of time learning aerodynamics and email with a few engineers on various details of powerplants and flight dynamics. Ron

[Guest Ron Freimuth]

>From a minority member: >>The last three versions of MSFS have had a common and very >irritating error. When extending spoilers in the FS Lear >(or any FS jet, for that matter), speed drops at too great a >rate and the aircraft tends to pitch up. That is not the >way a real Lear flies. That's because 'spoiler drag' is set about 7X a realistic value; also, lift is dumped. In real AC full spoilers are used only on the ground after touchdown. While speedbrakes or 'airspoilers' are used in the air. I'm hoping to get this resolved in the DF 727 by having a third (flight spoilers/speedbrakes) detent added to the spoiler control so one gets mainly drag with little lift dump in the air, and full lift dump after touchdown. >Also, with FS2002, the aircraft cannot be backed up on the >ground with reverse thrust and jets slow down at an >unrealistic rate at flight idle. I suspect it's because the >FS braking and zero throttle settings are set for C182 >dynamics. >Allyn MS must have changed the reverse thrust a bit in the turbine model. It's easy to get AC to back up with reverse thrust by setting the 'reverse thrust throttle percent' parameter in the AIR file to "-50". However, apparently too difficult for MS to set. MS was informed of many things, including excessive rolling resistance, in the FS2K2 beta test. That is set outside the 'flight model', apparently in the scenery files. This was explained to them again for CFS3, but I don't know if anything has been done. I remember MS said it would be 'looking everywhere' for WWII AC data (Mentioned in the AVSIM News half a year ago) so it could develop better flight models for CFS3, then ended up making them more like arcade AC. Further, I heard the 'flight models' were not 'finished' until the 'final FS2K2 beta' and by then wasn't time to get any comments from the beta test forum. 'Finished' make me laugh. If real AC flew as the Lear you mentioned the only thing finished would be the pilot's life. Nor, do they want to be bothered with any 'patches' to FS2K2. Even though that would only require a DL of the small AIR files as far as reverse thrust goes. Since they couldn't get them right in months of FS2K2 development I guess they couldn't do much after release either.Ron

[Guest]

Well, thanks alot......Mr.Adamson, could you please send me that cessna flight dynamics update by Mr.Freimuth? It would be very appreceated!!Thanks!

[LAdamson 240]

nt

[LAdamson 240]

>Controllable yes, realistic no! I can "fly" these aircraft >without crashing, I just don't find them realistic or >enjoyable. I doubt I would have ever pursued real aviation >much beyond the first few flights if real aircraft behaved >this way, I am not that brave or crazy! >Well............................ I must confess, I really do like spins, hammerheads, and an occasional snap roll! Guess I could pretty well reject nearly ALL MSFS and 3rd party aircraft based on that critera!! :)L.Adamson

[Guest]

Thanks a lot!

[Guest Douglas K]

>Guess I could pretty well reject nearly ALL MSFS and 3rd party aircraft based on that critera!!< Point well taken! But then I assumed that we were talking about flight dynamics that were within the realm of the possible with Flight Simulator. Since modeling spin behavior seems to be so difficult, I have decided to settle for a reasonable facsimile of the real aircraft's flight dynamics.I am not averse to aerobatic flight, during my CFI days I would demonstrate spins and spin recovery techniques to students who were interested, and I may have been guilty of certain flight manuevers in a C-150 & 152 that were definetely outside the normal or utility categories for which they were certified (a friends observation that there appeared to be NO difference between the Cessna Aerobat and its tamer siblings aside from some extra reinforcement in the horizontal stabilizer may have led to some ill-advised departures from straight and level flight after a heartfelt resolution to keep the G-loading below 4.0 on the vertical manuevers) so I can't claim to be a stranger to being upside down in an airplane. You could never simulate the sensation of pulling G's or the or the broken blood vessels in your eyes after a long session of practice in a computer simulation anyway. I'll settle for normal flight with a fair degree of realism in my computer based efforts to defy gravity!

[Guest]

>I think he's right on the mark here. Microsoft's programmers >either can't or won't provide a decent flight model for the >aircraft that come with each release of flight simulator, >who knows why? Well, that was basically the point of my original post. To explain why they can't, and wont create a better flight model for each aircraft.

[LAdamson 240]

>Well, that was basically the point of my original post. To >explain why they can't, and wont create a better flight >model for each aircraft. And decent is in the "eye of the be-holder".... or your particular interest...As I've already explained; I could moan & groan that most flight models including 3rd parties, don't spin or slip well ---------------but ONE does, within the bounds of FS2002!Or others will moan that twin engine/engine out scenarios arn't up to par -------------------- but a few 3rd parties are very close!The defaults lie somewhere between poor & exceptional(exception-Lear 45). Not poor by any means because I've simply flown too many flight simulators to know better. They get you from point A to point B with normal flight and engine control inputs. By the book?----- perhaps not, but at least they work!! I've run into far worse with other simulations. My own common gripe examples are: babying a twin to maintain level flight & climb (another sim). A hopeless & un-recoverable descent after stalling (3rd party for FS2002). Running out of elevator well above stall or takeoff speed during approach (another sim). Right drift upon power application--- before left drift takes over (3rd party - FS2002). No feeling of mass & weight between large and small aircraft (another sim). Tendency to dive hard when rolling inverted (another sim). Note: NONE of the defaults exhibit these problems! These are faults that in some cases, make a simulated aircraft nearly or purely un-flyable under certain situations. Again --- these don't occur in the defaults.Other mis-conceptions:If it's porpousing in manual control, then it's the sim pilots problem (Lear exception)If the attitude indicator is off in level flight ---- then adjust the #### thing! Most are adjustable!If the single engines drift to the left ---- then great, they should!If the jet torques to the left ------ then fix your hardwareL.Adamson

[Guest]

I think most of it does not have to do with money related issues which are all montioned in this thread.This is probably not going to make me popular but i really see this whole flight dynamics modelling issue, which has been going on and on since as far as i can remember, has to do with a lack of passion on those who program this sim.It would take some effort putting the issues everyone knows about straight but i'm quite sure it could be done without sacrificing backwards compatibilty...and i'm talking about the issues everyone is talking about in this thread.Someone mentioned IL-2 here, and i think that sim..although it might have it's shortcomings aswell...shows what can be done when someone with a huge passion for aviation goes to work and moves heaven and earth to make it as real as possible. Forgotten battles will take it to even higher levels.The people visiting this site might not be the aversge buyer but i think none of us expects completely true to life flight models because we all know it's impossible but the FS programmers could do a whole lot more if they wanted to while remaining 'within budget'.I think It's just their heart isn't in it...they have a job..which they do...but passion for it seems to lack

[LAdamson 240]

I must get to work, but you have NO idea of the passion involved from the MSFS programmers. Much more than you'd believe. But unlike IL-2................... another very limited sim, the MS designers have much, much more to deal with than just airplanes, limited scenery, and a few clouds. L.Adamson