Sign in to follow this  
Guest drmweaver2

Social-psychology of FS community

Recommended Posts

Has anyone else noticed, or does anyone else feel as I am beginning to, that the forum-bsed FS community seems to involve some really strange dynamics - especially concerning version transitions, in this case from FS9-FSX?For instance, where I read a post specifically saying "I wonder if.." making reference to possible payware price reductions, are pretty much assured to garner defensive/aggressive responses along the lines of "what? We aren't [this, that, the other analogy].. This is not freeware.. it's a business..." etc. I haven't yet heard of any "demand" for price reductions (which would be an empty 'demand' anyway, wouldn't it?) and yet seemingly innocuous questions like these oftentimes receive dynamite/venom-laced responses.Or, for those which see the transition to FSX as a glass half full situation and take the current FSX not-100% implementation/satisfaction of their desires for "more and better" in stride .. they make a post and there seems to be little middle-ground in response. Either the original poster (or less seldom on the idea in the post) is almost personally, always fairly certainly, attacked for expressing an opinion? And the reverse is true also - the glass half empty people making posts seem to get counter posts though the personal attacks are slightly less vicious/aggressive.Or, the "I bought x product in good faith but.." posts... The total number of defensive posts in response from product developers - even those whose product is not "involved" in the thread seemingly grows exponentially on a daily basis... okay, slight exaggeration there.. still, the number of product developer posts with a somewhat defensive edge seems to have increased.Anyone else notice this recently? I haven't read all of the couple hundred thousand posts in the forums, but is this an expected and repeating pattern? If so, what's the estimated time to "relative quiet". ;PNow, I do see an awful lot of request for assistance posts which receive wonderfully helpful responses. So, my impression isn't comepletely jaundiced or skewed negatively. This impression is specifically limited to issues surrounding the "current" transition period from version to version... Do ya'll think this might have something to do with ... well, what DO ya'll think this has to do with IF you agree at least in part with my impression?Just curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

No one wants to comment? Cool. My post was meant as a question about whether my impression was a unique one, not an accusation or slam on anyone - and it's based on reading/having read multiple forums, not just avsim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have some valid point there John.We have never seen anything like this before. Nomatter what many claims, there was not even close that many "I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John, I don't think your perceptions are that far off in many respects. I have certainly noticed the forum(s) dynamics changing considerably over the past several months in the anticipation and final arrival of FSX. I have read here and elsewhere for years and never really posted much until now, which coincidently began in earnest, it seems, with my desire to express an opinion or two regarding FSX. Lately, the discussion in FSX forum seems more like an ongoing "drama" with a life of it's own. It's been interesting to read certain long-time contributors thoughts and opinions over time - their hidden agendas and motives show through like blood on toilet paper. But all in all, if I don't like what I read or disagree - I'velearned to move on to a different topic instead of trying to change or mold opinions of others. Seems to me we need to learn that it's ok to disagree on some things. :-) JMHO Regards, KendallDell 8400 3.2 GHZ H.T.800 FSB/2MB L22 GB 533 DDR2X800XT 256MB/Catalyst driver - 6.9's6x Adaptive AA/16x HQ A/FIntegrated SoundDual Monitor: Dell 2405/1905CH Yoke/Pedals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The total number of defensive posts in response from product developers - even those whose product is not "involved" in the thread seemingly grows exponentially on a daily basis... okay, slight exaggeration there.. still, the number of product developer posts with a somewhat defensive edge seems to have increased."I agree :)Rule #1 on the forums: never criticize a commercial vendor. I abhor this aspect of the community. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that includes critical comments. Not everyone wants to be lied to :), and not everyone has their head in the sand!FSX has been elevated to sainthood on these forums. Last week somebody wanted to see the good and the bad parts of FSX. I highlighted the errors in FSX and I was attacked by two people. One claimed that I had an "agenda", whilst the other lost all respect for me :-lol. I think these two people are pathetic .... all I did was highlight the problems! I didn't attack MS or tell the person not to buy FSX. Many people on the FSX forum are zealots, and I don't have the time for them. In the eyes of zealots you should only say positive things, even if the product has a host of flaws :-roll.I agree with Staffan as well :). There are suspicious members who are "mouthpieces" for various groups :(.Have you noticed the number of "first posters" who rip into critics? Do they have any connection with the group being criticized? ;). Deceit is widespread on these forums :(. Watch out for the shills, the commercial vendors who wax lyrical, and the zealots :-roll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JohnYou pose a very interesting series of questions, ones which I have often wondered about. I don't have any anwers. I, myself have entered the fray as an anti-FSX poster often, I think because I find the 'cheerleaders' rather sickening in their insistence on being uncritical and totally blind to the problems that many are having with FSX. The forums do seem to reflect the dynamic of the wider world and it sems to point to the fact that humn beings will divide and polarise on any #### thing you care to mention!! Maybe you should repost your original question on the FSX forum. It would be interesting to hear what the 'canboys' and 'cheerleader's have to say.Staffan. . . . you suggest and interesting idea. . . mouthpiece. . . hmmm. I'll think about that one.:-) Not something, I confess that had occurred to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>You have some valid point there John.>>We have never seen anything like this before. Nomatter what>many claims, there was not even close that many "I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have noticed that a few of the more 'vocally defensive' developers are the ones who were clearly involved with the development and beta testing of FSX.Now faced with losing out on sales of addons, they shout down the the people who are getting poor FSX performance for fear of losing money. It's in their interests to 'big up' FSXSome of the other developers (mainly scenery it seems) have been more vocally offensive and clearly were not properly consulted in the development cycle of FSX...the 'outsiders' if you will.Personally, I have FSX and have used it a little. However I am shelving it and sticking with FS9 until the dust settles and a few addons are ported over. If I get worse performance than I do now, it will be shelved permanently until I have hardware that can do it justice. (FSX is the reason I purchased this pc by the way!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This place always gets chaotic anytime a new version of FS is released. We get a lot of new posters, as well as a lot more traffic from the forum regulars. I think things are magnified by the fact that there are still many good reasons not to upgrade to the new version at this point. I haven't seen the numbers, but just at a glance it seems a lot more people are staying with fs9 for the short term then in previous years. I'm just thinking back on recent releases:Fs98 -> fs2000 (poor performance and lots of people going back and forth)FS2000 -> FS2002 (pretty much a "no-brainer" upgrade at that point)FS2002 -> FS2004 (some performance issues, but most people seemed to make the jump pretty quickly)FS2004 -> FSX (personally I think this is the toughest decision since the 2000 release)I think at this point there are so many different views (and none are wrong):-"I'll upgrade to FSX because I am ready for something new"-"I'll stay with FS9 because I have so many addons already and I want to keep my performance high"-"I've got the hard drive space, so I'll run both!" Anyway, this is the first time since FS2000 that I have not gone out and purchased the new version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definitely wasn't trying to start a fight or making anyone defensive here. I was just curious about others' perception(s).Maybe I'm just too old to understand that discussion today is different from what discussion was as I was growing up. We used ot be able to discuss pros and cons somewhat objectively on all sors of products (tho' I remember the "Found on the Road Deaders" kinda hatin' on the "Chevy Freaks" ;P). But, on the 'Net, it seems that passions override civility so often that real discussion gets crushed.For numerous reasons, I hadn't flown FS since at least FS5 and am only now getting "back" into it. Luckily, I found this and a few other forums - each with a different tone and perspective. But, the consistent thread between them, other than they are all about FSimming, is the apparent absolutism without compromise in terms of point of view taken on any issue - there's little middle ground.For me, I appreciate knowing the flaws, misprogrammed bits and little difficulties AND the work-arounds if known. No product I've ever owned has been perfect - FS9 certainly wasn't out of th ebox but tweaks and addons have helped alleviate its weaknesses. Still not perfect but definitely infinitely (okay, measurably) better than what I remember from a decade plus(?) ago.I never figured FSX would be a perfect product out of the box. So I'm happily flying along watching the fray of its teething issues from the outside. I don't have the funds or inclination to go the FSX way at this time (if my gf Santa Claus's it to me for Xmas, I'll still probably keep it on the shelf for a while... um, maybe! ;P) But I would still be able to fly in the FSX environment and accept its limitations if my FS9 install imploded and I couldn't get it back.... That's reality. Anyway, I guess that I'll hang around and watchthe technical discussions and try to overlook the *de riguer* personality clashes that seem to have (re)surfaced as a result of or time-coincident with the version transition.Ya'll have a nice day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In terms of deciding what to buy, I always go by my insticts. I was at a gamestop store the other day; sure enough they had FSX on the shelves. Played with the box, looked at the cover art, then looked at the official "Prima Guide". I said to myself: wow, this looks like Grand Theft Auto for flight simmers! (see my sig: I'm an avid first person shooter gamer, no prejudice against computer games at all).There just seems to be something weirdly off with this version. Maybe it's the flying cows, the coloring, I don't know. One could get the impression that this version is more for the XBOX 360 crowd. In addition, Microsoft doesn't seem to have fixed any of the issues simmers were having with previous versions (improved ai handling, improved atc, etc.). Taken together with the various "ominous" posts made in regards to the difficulty of producing addon sceneries - I've simply decided that at this time it's not worth the stress of upgrading, and, of course, in doing so, abandoning the sizeable stock of addons I have accumulated. I've also noticed that the FS9 forum is now markedly calmer than the FSX forum. ricardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John,I share your point of view and I think your observations are spot on. I have indeed noticed this across the board on several forums. We live in a time where communication and interaction has become "impersonal" as we don't communicate face to face like we used to, but rather through machines. This "impersonal" way of communication seems to slim down the need for courteous and respectful interaction. I personally think that lack of respect lies at the base of the things you've observed across the board.regards,Gerhard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>There just seems to be something weirdly off with this>version. Maybe it's the flying cows"flying cows" ?!?! 0_o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These forums are great for discussions - and some people do get a bit carried away at times. But I simply choose to read what I find helpful and ignore the rest. I really would like to change over to FSx - but for me, the reason that I haven't yet relates to hardware. In times past,my PCs have been a 486, followed by a Pentium 133, followed by a Pentium 1000 and finally now an AMD 2400. Those hardware upgrades were valuable to me when using all software - Internet stuff, office programmes, games, etc. But I have now gotten to the point where my AMD2400 and a recently acquired X800 vid card does everything that I want (including FS2004)- I have no need to upgrade my hardware for anything other than Fsim - FSx. So at this point, it is difficult for me to justify the expense of a new system. In time this machine will die - and by that time Vista and Dx10 will be out, so that for me will be the time to replace the machine.Barry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>John,>>I share your point of view and I think your observations are>spot on. I have indeed noticed this across the board on>several forums. >>We live in a time where communication and interaction has>become "impersonal" as we don't communicate face to face like>we used to, but rather through machines. This "impersonal" way>of communication seems to slim down the need for courteous and>respectful interaction. I personally think that lack of>respect lies at the base of the things you've observed across>the board.>>regards,>GerhardGerhard, you seem to have put your finger square on the most prominent aspect of many forums these days.Civility, common decency, respect for another person and their viewpoint, is certainly becoming rare.That, along with some folks almost incessant need to declare to the world why "they will never ever have anything to do with XYZ......." helps to foster a less genteeel atmosphere:-)Much of the "posturing" that occurs may have to do with the "commercial" aspect of this hobby. Some appear to be unaware that they alone control their own purchase decisions and it manifests itself in challenges to "commercial" entites as if they were somehow forced to give up their right to choose what they wish to own. :-)Ah well, many still maintain a hopeful outlook that folks will mature and simply change their approach to the way they participate in community forums:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>Civility, common decency, respect for another person and their viewpoint, is certainly becoming rare......Much of the "posturing" that occurs may have to do with the"commercial" aspect of this hobby. >Some appear to be unaware that they alone control their own purchase decisions and it manifests itself in challenges to "commercial" entites as if they were somehow forced to give up their right to choose what they wish to own. :-)>Ah well, many still maintain a hopeful outlook that folks will mature and simply change their approach to the way they participate in community forums:-)Two interesting things in this post as far as I am concerned -- and this is not an attack!Notice the somewhat superior and condescending attitude in the second part I quoted ("some appear.."). It's passive-aggressive at best - though it's obviously got a good deal of TRUTH behind it. That sort of continues in the "Ah well" part.Which brings me/us back to the first line... "civility...is certainly becoming rare." Definintely... and the definition of civility seems to be changing (akin to the noun "disrespect" now seemingly taking on the attributes of a verb in modern parlance.)That this was written by a commercial developer only puts yet another interesting "spin" on any interpretation of it. Is this snide? Toungue in cheek? Or does it reflect accurately what the poster/commercial entity feels - condescension? Interesting questions... no suggestion as to what my conclusion should be - smilies don't count.As I said, this (my post) was not meant as an attack - I am simply using the most recent post in this thread as an illustration of how something that pretty much certainly was not meant as an attack on any individual has some "issues" when reading it - especially if the reader has been sensitized to the (passive-)aggression currently found throughout the community forums.Note: I don't know the person who wrote what I quoted above and have nothing against him, Eaglesoft, or any other commercial entity. I hope that no insult is taken in using this quote as an example... None was intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No offense intended nor none taken John. It is always interesting to compare what is actually intended in print to how the same sentence is percieved:-)Much like the old parlor game where a person whispers a written sentence into his neighbors ear and this continues around a circle until the last person repeats what heard and it is compared to the original written sentence..the results can be hilarious:-)Communication is a wonderful thing:-lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!:-) :-) A post I really enjoyed!!!!!You started it, John, But I want to thank everyone who have responded so far (16 responses) to this. And no bloodshed!This was has been very informative and very interesting reading on a day I was getting sick and tired of the mess.I consider my self a small fish in this big pond, but I really like this hobby and enjoy for the most part the community we share a common bond. I look often use the number of posts to gauge the credibility of person opening their mouth. I know it is not a scientific cluster, but it helps me learn what is fact and wat may be fiction. And the experience level.When I see people who have far more experience in this hobby than I have a discussion as this one today, and offer realistic, thoughtful, comment versus knee jerk reaction I feel confident that this thing we do can "still be fun".I don't have FSX. Will I ever have FSX? I hope so. Am I ready to switch? Not yet. Is that bad? From what I have read, it is not. So now I have hope that I will be able to ask somebody a question about FS9, or for that matter 2004 which I still use, and not have to worry about getting slammed. And in turn maybe I can help some other "newbie" feel a part of what is really a neat bunch of people sharing a common bond which is FS.I don't really have a comment to this post. I don't need to. Some of you have already said what I needed. Thanks GuysBest regardsJan1,KINDWhen I push the button and it works, I'm happy:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,Yepp,..it is kind of rare to be able to enjoy a post here today. And I don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"When I push the button and it works, I'm happy "You know, I've seen this signature and hesitated to comment on it, but I think it's very appropo.What may be happening in the community forums is that, as the community grows, more people enter the "hobby" expecting just the above - click the button and it works as they saw it in the commercials or on someone else's computer --- or even heard about it (and we've already demonstrated how inadequate language is in accurately conveying anything.Without the tweaks the community has developed for FS9, FS9 would not be "what it is today". I think there seems to have been some sort of expectation that MS would take that experience and incorporate or build on it so that not so much after-purchase tweaking would have to be done immediately after installation of FSX. This, sadly, doesn't seem to be the case for most people and their systems - certainly not Joe-new-to-FS. Not only does that lead to frustration, but as the true financial cost of FSX and/or FS9 with addon purchases is realised, people seem to take the shock of the "ultimate financial costs" poorly - as if there's a deliberate unseen hand reaching into their pockets for their wallets."Promised" one thing (in actuality or not), they take out their frustration and dissatisfaction in their posts - sometimes despite their best efforts not to. Conversely, developer responses are written by real people - real people who have their hearts in the right place certainly, but who may have their livelihoods tied to the success or failure of their products feelign at least a small threat to that livelihood. Unfortunately, PR/Marketing and coding/addon design skillsets aren't necessarily in equal measure in individual forum posters... and parallleing something one of the site moderators said in one of his posts some time back, sometimes you just have to step back, get some distance and then revisit. Who said immediate response is an absolute guarantee in life? Two hours? Four hours? Two days? When I was a kid, two week responses were the norm - I keyed on the repsonse itself, not the time/speed of the response. I still do.Shrug. I don't "feel any better" or worse as a result of this thread. It has solidified my belief that I am not isolated in my perception. But, that doesn't solve anything... and I am not sure I was looking for a "solution". What HAS been solidified for me is that - for me - it's not worth the angst to move on from FS9 ($$-wise, tech-wise, or even alleged visual benefits-wise) at this point. Having just returned to FS, I don't have any really serious $$ investment in it. But, I can live with the freeware and a few paywares that the gf insisted I get (by purchasing them for me already). Now I have to figure out how to keep my kid from falling into the ethical chasm of dl'ing payware via torrent-sharing. He's smarter/more knowledgeable than I concerning firewalls and avoiding/getting around what I have set up. Then again, I haven't heard him talk about the forums yet... so, maybe that's a good thing. Lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good posts... there's really no reason to choose up sides and come out swinging. We all enjoy FS in whatever our variation of choice happens to be.DJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading all these responses thus far.....Two words come to mind:Acceptance+RespectAcceptable respect to others choice of opinion.That does not equate to agreement, but it does require being humbly respectful of others regardless. That also does not equate to being passive, nor aggressive, but assertive.Being respectfully assertive is not something I find enough of in many forums over the last few years. And it has gotten worse over time. It is actually too bad, as engaging in a forum can be a great tool for learning constructive dialog with others. Some do not take that opportunity.....good subject BTW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>It is actually too bad, as engaging in a forum can be a great>tool for learning constructive dialog with others. Many do not>take that opportunity.Hi,You have some good points there.But how many constructive dialogs do you think the "old version" simmers can get in a general forum, where they only get the advice to go and get the latest version. :-hmmmIt has always been like that, and even more so today over at the FSX forum.I have been around this community now for nearly 20 years. And the "climate" is not getting better at all. My crystalball shows that it will even get wors if something is not done to stop it. But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role.http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifDell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)AGP 256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVo, flashed to a X850 XT PE. Omega 2.6.87 (CAT 5.12)DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP2E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"370Gb HD (120 GB Maxtor, 250GB Samsung) 7200rpm ATA Lacie 250Gb Extern HDBlogg: http://blogg.passagen.se/primeaviFiles: http://library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=...&Go=Change+View

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role."It seems that "management" does have a role to play in what they allow and how far they let things go but.....perhaps what folks are hinting at in this discussion is that users "manage" themselves in a more respectful manner:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>"But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role.">>It seems that "management" does have a role to play in what>they allow and how far they let things go but.....perhaps what>folks are hinting at in this discussion is that users "manage">themselves in a more respectful manner:-) I agree 100%. But who is going to "teach" the users, if they can not "manage" this themselfs? That is where AVSIM should be more firm.One very good example is that today you can post with whatever alias you want. Why?? Why is it so difficult to make it compulsory to use the real name and a verifiable E-mail address? That rule can be found on many other sites,..so why not here? Didn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this