Social-psychology of FS community

[Guest drmweaver2]

>Civility, common decency, respect for another person and their viewpoint, is certainly becoming rare......Much of the "posturing" that occurs may have to do with the"commercial" aspect of this hobby. >Some appear to be unaware that they alone control their own purchase decisions and it manifests itself in challenges to "commercial" entites as if they were somehow forced to give up their right to choose what they wish to own. :-)>Ah well, many still maintain a hopeful outlook that folks will mature and simply change their approach to the way they participate in community forums:-)Two interesting things in this post as far as I am concerned -- and this is not an attack!Notice the somewhat superior and condescending attitude in the second part I quoted ("some appear.."). It's passive-aggressive at best - though it's obviously got a good deal of TRUTH behind it. That sort of continues in the "Ah well" part.Which brings me/us back to the first line... "civility...is certainly becoming rare." Definintely... and the definition of civility seems to be changing (akin to the noun "disrespect" now seemingly taking on the attributes of a verb in modern parlance.)That this was written by a commercial developer only puts yet another interesting "spin" on any interpretation of it. Is this snide? Toungue in cheek? Or does it reflect accurately what the poster/commercial entity feels - condescension? Interesting questions... no suggestion as to what my conclusion should be - smilies don't count.As I said, this (my post) was not meant as an attack - I am simply using the most recent post in this thread as an illustration of how something that pretty much certainly was not meant as an attack on any individual has some "issues" when reading it - especially if the reader has been sensitized to the (passive-)aggression currently found throughout the community forums.Note: I don't know the person who wrote what I quoted above and have nothing against him, Eaglesoft, or any other commercial entity. I hope that no insult is taken in using this quote as an example... None was intended.

[N400QW 205]

No offense intended nor none taken John. It is always interesting to compare what is actually intended in print to how the same sentence is percieved:-)Much like the old parlor game where a person whispers a written sentence into his neighbors ear and this continues around a circle until the last person repeats what heard and it is compared to the original written sentence..the results can be hilarious:-)Communication is a wonderful thing:-lol

[monnie 1]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!:-) :-) A post I really enjoyed!!!!!You started it, John, But I want to thank everyone who have responded so far (16 responses) to this. And no bloodshed!This was has been very informative and very interesting reading on a day I was getting sick and tired of the mess.I consider my self a small fish in this big pond, but I really like this hobby and enjoy for the most part the community we share a common bond. I look often use the number of posts to gauge the credibility of person opening their mouth. I know it is not a scientific cluster, but it helps me learn what is fact and wat may be fiction. And the experience level.When I see people who have far more experience in this hobby than I have a discussion as this one today, and offer realistic, thoughtful, comment versus knee jerk reaction I feel confident that this thing we do can "still be fun".I don't have FSX. Will I ever have FSX? I hope so. Am I ready to switch? Not yet. Is that bad? From what I have read, it is not. So now I have hope that I will be able to ask somebody a question about FS9, or for that matter 2004 which I still use, and not have to worry about getting slammed. And in turn maybe I can help some other "newbie" feel a part of what is really a neat bunch of people sharing a common bond which is FS.I don't really have a comment to this post. I don't need to. Some of you have already said what I needed. Thanks GuysBest regardsJan1,KINDWhen I push the button and it works, I'm happy:-)

[Staffan 12]

Hi,Yepp,..it is kind of rare to be able to enjoy a post here today. And I don

[Guest drmweaver2]

"When I push the button and it works, I'm happy "You know, I've seen this signature and hesitated to comment on it, but I think it's very appropo.What may be happening in the community forums is that, as the community grows, more people enter the "hobby" expecting just the above - click the button and it works as they saw it in the commercials or on someone else's computer --- or even heard about it (and we've already demonstrated how inadequate language is in accurately conveying anything.Without the tweaks the community has developed for FS9, FS9 would not be "what it is today". I think there seems to have been some sort of expectation that MS would take that experience and incorporate or build on it so that not so much after-purchase tweaking would have to be done immediately after installation of FSX. This, sadly, doesn't seem to be the case for most people and their systems - certainly not Joe-new-to-FS. Not only does that lead to frustration, but as the true financial cost of FSX and/or FS9 with addon purchases is realised, people seem to take the shock of the "ultimate financial costs" poorly - as if there's a deliberate unseen hand reaching into their pockets for their wallets."Promised" one thing (in actuality or not), they take out their frustration and dissatisfaction in their posts - sometimes despite their best efforts not to. Conversely, developer responses are written by real people - real people who have their hearts in the right place certainly, but who may have their livelihoods tied to the success or failure of their products feelign at least a small threat to that livelihood. Unfortunately, PR/Marketing and coding/addon design skillsets aren't necessarily in equal measure in individual forum posters... and parallleing something one of the site moderators said in one of his posts some time back, sometimes you just have to step back, get some distance and then revisit. Who said immediate response is an absolute guarantee in life? Two hours? Four hours? Two days? When I was a kid, two week responses were the norm - I keyed on the repsonse itself, not the time/speed of the response. I still do.Shrug. I don't "feel any better" or worse as a result of this thread. It has solidified my belief that I am not isolated in my perception. But, that doesn't solve anything... and I am not sure I was looking for a "solution". What HAS been solidified for me is that - for me - it's not worth the angst to move on from FS9 ($$-wise, tech-wise, or even alleged visual benefits-wise) at this point. Having just returned to FS, I don't have any really serious $$ investment in it. But, I can live with the freeware and a few paywares that the gf insisted I get (by purchasing them for me already). Now I have to figure out how to keep my kid from falling into the ethical chasm of dl'ing payware via torrent-sharing. He's smarter/more knowledgeable than I concerning firewalls and avoiding/getting around what I have set up. Then again, I haven't heard him talk about the forums yet... so, maybe that's a good thing. Lol.

[ubersu 78]

Good posts... there's really no reason to choose up sides and come out swinging. We all enjoy FS in whatever our variation of choice happens to be.DJ

[bkeske 0]

After reading all these responses thus far.....Two words come to mind:Acceptance+RespectAcceptable respect to others choice of opinion.That does not equate to agreement, but it does require being humbly respectful of others regardless. That also does not equate to being passive, nor aggressive, but assertive.Being respectfully assertive is not something I find enough of in many forums over the last few years. And it has gotten worse over time. It is actually too bad, as engaging in a forum can be a great tool for learning constructive dialog with others. Some do not take that opportunity.....good subject BTW.

[Staffan 12]

>It is actually too bad, as engaging in a forum can be a great>tool for learning constructive dialog with others. Many do not>take that opportunity.Hi,You have some good points there.But how many constructive dialogs do you think the "old version" simmers can get in a general forum, where they only get the advice to go and get the latest version. :-hmmmIt has always been like that, and even more so today over at the FSX forum.I have been around this community now for nearly 20 years. And the "climate" is not getting better at all. My crystalball shows that it will even get wors if something is not done to stop it. But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role.http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifDell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)AGP 256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVo, flashed to a X850 XT PE. Omega 2.6.87 (CAT 5.12)DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP2E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"370Gb HD (120 GB Maxtor, 250GB Samsung) 7200rpm ATA Lacie 250Gb Extern HDBlogg: http://blogg.passagen.se/primeaviFiles: http://library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=...&Go=Change+View

[N400QW 205]

"But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role."It seems that "management" does have a role to play in what they allow and how far they let things go but.....perhaps what folks are hinting at in this discussion is that users "manage" themselves in a more respectful manner:-)

[Staffan 12]

>"But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role.">>It seems that "management" does have a role to play in what>they allow and how far they let things go but.....perhaps what>folks are hinting at in this discussion is that users "manage">themselves in a more respectful manner:-) I agree 100%. But who is going to "teach" the users, if they can not "manage" this themselfs? That is where AVSIM should be more firm.One very good example is that today you can post with whatever alias you want. Why?? Why is it so difficult to make it compulsory to use the real name and a verifiable E-mail address? That rule can be found on many other sites,..so why not here? Didn

[N400QW 205]

Good points all Staffan.

[boshar 6]

>"But here the management of AVSIM plays a crucial role.">>It seems that "management" does have a role to play in what>they allow and how far they let things go but.....perhaps what>folks are hinting at in this discussion is that users "manage">themselves in a more respectful manner:-) Why can't we have a moderation points / karma system like http://slashdot.org has. It would give the community more control over itself.

[Guest Crimguy]

I don't know if it's necessary. I like the negative posts as much as the constructive posts. Personal attacks should be moderated IMHO, but not much else.FS releases, like operating systems, seem to galvanize people to one platform or another. I have noticed some of the best commercial developers get very defensive if you make even the slightest criticism of their product. Maybe something is lost in print, maybe not. I have felt that many of the posts that have been locked lately were people who criticized FSX. I sometimes wonder if AVSim, and it's forum members, think those who criticize are unpatriotic ;-)

[N562Z 4]

To me , it looks as though FSX was designed for the eye-candy crowd. Everything is too "blue" to me. I'm not switching anytime soon. With FS9 I've got great frame-rates, awesome weather, and wonderful scenery and payware add-ons that for the most part function just fine. Plus, with the Matrox Triple Head-2-Go wide-screen resoulution and the Track IR, my flightsim eexperience has risen to another level. I am enjoying flying again, a little bit everyday in fact, like I never have before. Nothing I have now works in FSX. Pass for now. I'll use it for the shared cockpit feature online, with default planes. I'm not going to spend the second half of my life trying to get it to fly at 10-12 frames per second.http://www.my-buddy-icon.com/Icons/objects/red_3d_plane.gifAlex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MD

[kerosene31 349]

Things are not so bad here, there is still lots of creative discussions going on. Sometimes, you just have to filter out some "noise". The biggest problem I see is when people confuse opinions with facts, and vice versa. An example, I'm going to say, "I like vanilla ice cream better than chocolate!" Now, somewhere out there, there is a chocolate ice cream fan who is going to try to argue with me or feel slighted. Why? How can my opinion be wrong? Does my liking vanilla mean that I look down on those who like other flavors? What about strawberry? Strawberry fans are really miffed, as they were ignored completely :)This may be an over-simplified example, but this kind of thing happens far too often. An opinion cannot be right or wrong.Of course, the other extreme is to say, "Chocolate is the best ice cream around!" This time, someone wanted to express their opinion, but ended up saying something completely different. Now, in these situations, we should be exchanging opinions and views, but instead sometimes people feel the need to resolve the issue until there is one "correct" answer.