FS9 add-on cost discussion

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Because you posted that in an AVSIM forum without clarification. Why wouldn't someone conclude you were referring to AVSIM?

[CanadaOne 36]

mgh,Is it me, or are you being a bit aggresive? I was just asking an honest question that I'm sure many other flightsimheads have asked themselves.And I thank you for your answer. it does explain a few things.Also, I never said Shockwave does not not its business, I simply used them as an example for a question. Please note that I have had positive things to say about Shockwave in all my posts.

[Bob Scott 7,720]

If you sell 1000 units at $10 each, you support 1000 users.If you sell 2000 units at $5 each you get to support 2000 users.So costs should vary with quantity sold even via download, unless your support staff works for free. Of course you support your 2000 users with thousands of copies of a few generic e-mail responses...seems to work for Captain Sim.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

[Paul J 349]

. . . because most of us who frequent Avsim and its forums on a daily basis know, and understand that Avsim does not engage in such practices. Avsim's moderators have - in my mind - consistently been the most honest and forthright in all matters where commerce is concerned, Tom. A number of other sites may have, but do not adhere to that "arm's-length" policy. Your site is probably the Standard of the industry. He was only trying to be - in his way - polite and diplomatic - perhaps not wishing to cause potential embarassment for Avsim. . . and so I would (humbly) ask that you ease up just a little bit - maybe try not be quite so thin-skinned. One can sometimes unknowingly hurt the people who most respect and care about us.Best Regards,pj

[kerosene31 349]

CanadaOne,Your example of the Shockwave HE-219 is interesting. Now, I consider myself to be reasonably knowledgeable in aviation, but I honestly had to Google that plane to even know what it was. I would have guessed that it was a Heinkel. Anyway, you must realize that with a plane like this, they are dealing with a niche market *within* another niche market. The first being flight sim add-ons at all (many MSFS customers never purchase one commercial add-on), then on top of that you have another niche of sort of obscure WWII warbirds. Now, I won't buy this add-on no matter how low the price. Why? I know nothing about this developer or their products, but that doesn't matter. I simply have no interest in these kinds of planes. I'm going to take a guess and assume that there are lots of other people out there who would not be particularly interested either. So, would cutting the price in half double sales? I would safely say absolutely not. It might not even increase sales at all.

[mgh 89]

Don't you think that if Shockwave and all the other developers believed they could increase their profits by reducing their prices by 50% they'd have done it by now?

[CanadaOne 36]

mgh,The world is full of curiosities and curious practices. There is no guarantee that a person or a company will always behave in their own best interests. A third person observation, or question, fairly asked, is not out of line. And I am trying to be fair.You are a flightsim add-on buyer as am I, I assume, and therefore your opinion counts for at least as much as mine. Is it you opinion that prices for add-ons are not open to question, or do you see the buyer as someone who may be subjective about add-on prices and debate them either in the forums or with the companies?What about quality vs. price? What are your thoughts on add-on value, company responsibiltiy to the buyer, and refunds for DL products?Thanks.

[kerosene31 349]

>What about quality vs. price? What about it? We make these decisions every day. It has been discussed numerous times, there is no way to objectively measure "quality" for each and every simmer. One persons "highly detailed add-on" is "too complicated" for someone else. It is the buyer's responsibility to do all these things you ask. Want to find out about a company? Just do a simple search of the major fs related forums. Also, read their own support forum *before* you buy (if it is open). Look into refund policies before you buy...These things do not take more than a few minutes really and can save you a ton of time and headaches down the line.

[CanadaOne 36]

I was simply asking other people's opinions. This is an interactive flightsim forum after all. I feel like I've peed in someone's Corn Flakes for even mentioning the subject of add-on pricing.For my part, though the issue is very subjective, I think we can draw up enough analogies between our expectations and add-on prices to have a reasonable base for comparison and conversation.For instance, given your knowledge of the market and your experience with different add-ons, whould you agree that any add-on plane over $40 should be *excellent* in several areas; skin res, FM, VC, for example? Including a clear advisory regrading possible FPS performance on older systems? Or do you think $40 is not the top end of add-on plane prices and there is room for higher priced aircraft add-ons?I'm not complaining, trolling, or flamming, I am seeking flightsimmer's opinions, like yours, about a big part of the flightsim hobby.

[kerosene31 349]

I'm not upset by your discussion, rather I am just trying to say that what you ask is impossible. There can be no minimum standards that you suggest. Who would decide them, let alone enforce them? It all comes down to comparing add-ons, and that can be tough. When you get down to details everything is a little different, and individual expectations vary wildly. Someone who flies exclusively in the VC is going to be very interested in a virtual cockpit quality, while a 2d panel person is going to care much less. It would be wonderful if every add-on excelled in every area, but that is difficult, especially when you start throwing performance into the mix as well. Each add-on varies and it is up to each individual to decide what is "worth it" or not.

[CanadaOne 36]

Thank you for the reply. I admit to misreading the tone of your previous post.The way I see it, the add-on makers definitely have standards regarding what they build, how they build it, and what they sell it for. Therefore, I think, we buyers might also have some shared criteria rergarding add-on quality and prices.It's not a question of enforcement of standards, the marketplace does that on its ethereal own. It's merely a subject to reflect on and share points of view to find where we share common ground.If, for example, the Captain Sim C-130, by all accounts a very good product, was for sale at $9.99, I believe a majority of us would probably think that was a great deal. If that plane was for sale at $49.99, the majority of us would probably say it was too expensive. Right there we have established a set of parameters that we can begin to base our shared views on.I think most add-on buyers would agree that $10 is the low end and $40 is the high end. That give us a $30 range to look into when comparing differences in quality. I think this prioe scale applies to scenery and utilities as well.If this is true, and the majority of buyers think $40 is the high end, then that majority may also have other shared views. One of them, for example, might be eye candy. Do you think it's fair, regardless of the subjectivity of all this, that any $40+ add-on should be graphically excellent?Again, this is not a question of right or wrong, but of people voicing their opinions.

[mgh 89]

The world may be full of curious practices, but I guess that most suppliers have got their prices about right from their point of view. A supplier that got its prices wrong by 50% is unlikely to be in business long.I see no point in questioning or discussing add-on prices any more that questioning or debating the price of cars. When I want to replace my car I decide what I'd like and what I can afford and check around models and prices until I reach a compromise. I certainly don't suggest that dealers would be better off if they halved their prices.As I said previously, the producer sets a the price and the customer decides if he's prepared to pay it. No one compels a customer to buy. It's a free market. If the add-on customer has any sense he'll check these forums for the opinions of others about value, company responsibility to the buyer, and refunds to help in that decision.

[flyinpilot212121 724]

In a way off topic, but I wonder how many copies of the PMDG747 or the level D sim 767 have been sold What would one guess?Just curious to se as to how big the MSFS customer base actually is(and not just anyone buying a copy of MSFS, but us hardcore peeps that would purchase the 747 or 767)

[CanadaOne 36]

mgh: "I see no point in questioning or discussing add-on prices... "Why on earth not? We are a group of people who share the same hobby and we also share many insights on different aspects of this hobby, including how much add-ons cost. I don't see how asking questions about the pricing of add-ons, for which many of us pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars, has no point. It's our money. We can chose to spend it or not spend it, and we are certainly allowed to discuss why, where and how, we will spend it or not spend it. Our discussions, if broad enough in scope, and well reasoned, could even impact the market.One such discussion in these forums caused an add-on marketer to change their main page and clarify their pricing, as well as offer a refund to a dissatisfied customer. This was a positive change for all parties brought about by a short public thread. Being a consumer who has spent thousands of dollars on flightsims, flightsim add-ons, flightsim hardware, and computer upgrades specifically for flightsims, I am entitled to voice my opinion and seek the opinions of others to see if a consensus may be had.Also, we are not only discussing prices, but how prices relate to quality and how we flightsimmers view the quality vs. price aspect of add-ons. This is very important to many of us.I'm sure everyone welcomes your opinion on these matters but I do hope you have something to offer other than simply telling us not to talk about.

[flyinpilot212121 724]

Just curious, What development group are you part of????Honest question, im just curious.