Wilco A320 - another one

[Guest Water Mango]

I just got the FeelThere A320 package and from reading this thread I'd say we have another Troll among us. This guy claiming he's an instructor is full of it...If you can come away from the FeelThere A320 saying it's worse that PSS's 4 years old model is smoking something. :-boom I challenge anyone to buy this add-on and find PSS's version better. Some people will say anything to make someone else look bad. :-boom The FeelThere A320 package is truly a hardcore package with full FBW implementation. It will proudly stand along side the other hardcore packages coming out especially AirlinerXP. Will it be the best of the bunch, there's pros and cons that will decide that. PSS's model doesn't come close and you'd be a fool to believe crap like that. Where Feelthere has the others beat is you get the full series in one package (A318/319/320/321). All the other packages will only give you the A320.Guys this is a good buy... Does it have a few bugs, yes (just like most other new releases even Windows Vista and FSX). The bugs I hopeful will get fixed but they are not show stoppers. Don't believe these trolls trying to get air time because they have an axe to grind with FeelThere. This is a very nice package (for FS9, I know nothing about the FSX version).For those waiting for AirlinerXP understand your only getting one plane, with Feelthere you get all A320 variants....GREAT JOB FEELTHERE!!! :-beerchug

[Dillon 2,197]

"You are much too naive boshar, the people at feelthere wont fix everything because they feel it will be good enough."How in the heck do you know this??? :-boom I personally never met you yet I'm doing everything I can to help fix the bugs in the FeelThere model. Wilco screwed allot of people over. You touting AirlinerXP as if that's some big thing when behind the scenes AirlinerXP (DreamFleet, RealityXP, etc) and Feelthere are very good friends. We all know each other and some of the same developers have worked with each other here and there on the vary same products your bashing. You guys make me laugh jumping on bandwagons especially when you don't realize your criticizing the vary same people behind the scenes in many cases... :-lol

[ahinterl 1]

It's that simple: go through each item of the various bug lists and prove that they're untrue.As long as that doesn't happen, any further discussion at least for me is obsolete. The bug lists presented in the various forums are way too long as one could speak of "minor bugs" only. Again: a missing ADF2 alone disqualifies the plane IMHO.Whatever happened here, FeelThere/Wilco had an ambitious plan, but they failed.Andreas

[Brian Doney 127]

Not sure how criticizing FeelThere/Wilco can bee seen in any way as "criticizing the vary same people" as you put it, re: AirlinerXP/Flight1, but whatever, you know everybody in the business, after all :-roll I personally find the whole thing more entertainment than one should reasonably be allowed on a single Saturday afternoon. The emotional attachment people have with certain groups, good or bad, is about as stimulating as a Chevy vs Ford debate, but even more useless in practical terms.The true winners will be patient, wait until all products are in for evaluation, and make an informed choice. The rest of you will argue and bicker back and forth like children, lacking even the basic social skills to have a reasoned, vitriol-free discussion, to which I say carry on gents(and ladies ?), it makes for great reading. :-lol

[Mike T 208]

Hmmm, well, he could be the Queen of England for all I care, he took the time to post a laundry list of bugs, shortcomings and ommissions, which lends credibility to his post. He ALSO took the time to post PROPER Airbus sounds to replace the Boeing sounds that Feelthere included with the package.Feelthere says that this product has been "tested and approved by real Airbus Captains", which I find interesting that not one of those approving Airbus Captains could record one single sound for Feelthere so that they could included them? You retort with the "ignore him, he's a troll" is absurd when you offer not one single iota of evidence that 1. he's not who he says he is and 2. his findings concerning the A320 is hogwash. According to you, what we should believe is: ignore him - belive you, everything will be fine, Great Job Feelthere. So far, the only justification for the pitiful state of this release is that: "other developers had their problems too". The igorance of the obvious and the willingness pat the developers on the back no matter what they release is pure insanity.THIS is the reason that many developers have no hesitation to release any ole thing because someone will be there to make excuses for them, point their fingers at other products and stick their heads in the sand in hopes that when they pop their head out again, all will be well. In that sense, the Feelthere A320 is very well deserved. If the community is willing to pay to soothe the developers wounds and egos, then I say more power to them. They're the smart ones because they know that nowhere else can you have people spend $50, make a mess of the release, refuse to support it until they are ready, include obvious product bugs and ommission and receive a "Great Job Feelthere!!!"I'm expecting Allen Funt to appear at any minute to let me know that we are all on Candid Camera and its a gag and we'll all have a good laugh...

[Guest Skedflyer]

No offense but I know the people involved in the Airline XP are talented but lets compare the products when there is actually something to compare it to. We have only seen SS and a video (impressive video) but that

[Dillon 2,197]

"Not sure how criticizing FeelThere/Wilco can bee seen in any way as "criticizing the vary same people" as you put it"Since you don't understand I'll give a few examples,Bill Leaming not only works for Eaglesoft, he's done work with Dreamfleet among others.Rob Young designed flight models for both PSS and Feelthere among others.Lou Betti not only has DreamFleet, he also has done work on many Flight1 projects among others.FFS originally had the Cirrus project but gave it over to Eaglesoft. DreamFleet originally had the Piper Twin Comanche now Eaglesoft has taken it over.I'm on the beta team of both FeelThere and DreamFleet and have done freelance work on many different projects here and there.This happens all the time and all one needs to do is read the credits on any given add-on to see some of the very same people jump around from project to project.I don't want to get into specifics on current projects as the list is too long to list everything and everyone. You can't praise the PSS 777 and put down the FeelThere 737's FDE when the same designer has done both projects. Very few groups are like CaptainSim, Ariane, and/or Perfect Flight who have designers that are exclusive to those development groups. Feelthere has friends among the ranks of Eaglesoft and AirlinerXP, even PMDG. You might not like their artistic style but it's not uncomon to look in the credits to find someone like Bill Leaming designing the gauges or Lou Betti supplying the photos. This whole beef with FeelThere is BS. Feelthere (not Wilco) are very much of the mindset of releasing the best product they possibly can. The mindless comments I'm hearing in this thread is crap. These guys are not charlatans trying to make a quick buck (like Perfect Flight for instance). If that was the case people like Rob Young, Lou Betti (AirlinerXP/DreamFleet), and Bill Leaming wouldn't have anything to do with them. Read the credits of most of your add-ons to find out the people behind the scenes before you make these crazy accusations, that's all I'm saying.

[Dillon 2,197]

Andreas I could give you a pass on the list of bugs just like I can list all the problems with FSX and Vista. But when you start saying crap like Windows95 is better than Windows Vista then you look silly.That's about the size of it when you say PSS's A320 is better than FeelThere's A320 package. You can't be taken seriously with that kind of statement. For one thing there's no clickable VC in PSS's version, 90% of the Airbus systems weren't even attempted in the PSS version, and Fly By Wire wasn't even considered back then.Your Trolling man for whatever reason I can't fathom. The FeelThere Airbus package is nice and will only get better when a few rough edges are ironed out...

[Guest Water Mango]

Mike this is a funny one for me. :D I challenge you to buy the product yourself (the FS9 version that is) and you be the judge. If you come away with the ridicules perception that PSS's Airbus is better than FeelThere's newest offering then maybe Avsim needs to relieve you of your duties as a staff reviewer... :-lolSeriously man that's an idiotic statement to say the least and that alone tells me Andreas is full of it...I challenge anyone to buy the product and they'll see how crazy his statements really are. Your right don't take my word for it, take your own word for it from first hand experiance... :-cool

[Guest vrandar]

I've posted my first impressions of the FT/Wilco Airbus on another thread here in the FS9 forum so won't re-post everything I said there. But to summarise I don't think it adds a great deal to what we have had for the last 5 years or so with the PSS Airbus. The difference for me is that the flight dynamics of the FT Airbus seem excellent and are certainly a step up from even the merged iFDG/PSS. I also like the fluidity of the PFD and the stability of things like the speed tape which has always been "jumpy" in the PSS. For those who like VCs (not me I hasten to add) it does seem to be an improvement. But other things are no so good; I see no improvements in the MCDU for example - no secondary flight plan - and odd visual things like the fonts in the FCU and MCDU are not as good in my view as on the PSS. I'm also missing all SIDs and STARs but that can be sorted out in due course.So for me it's generally OK, not great and not a big leap forward. Very good, smooth FDE but nothing else really grabs me over the PSS. To quote Mandy Rice-Davies "well he would say that wouldn't he".Rob Elliott, EGPE InvernessPSS Airbus Support andAirbus Fleet Training Captain, British Airways Virtual airbus@speedbirdonline.co.ukhttp://www.speedbirdonline.co.uk/airbus.htmlhttp://www.bavirtual.co.uk

[Brian Doney 127]

Dillon,First, lets clarify, I'm not part of the "Death to Feelthere/Wilco" campaign. I haven't made any accusations.Secondly, do you think you could dispense with the name-dropping for a single post ? Yes, you've worked on many projects, guess what, so have I. Know what else ? No one cares. 90% of your post is nothing but this, and still doesn't do anything for your point. Criticism of FeelThere/Wilco /= criticism of AirlinerXP/Flight1, no matter how far you stretch to make it so.YOU are not responsible for, nor can YOU fix, any of the problems currently being discussed. Much of what is being said is absolutely ridiculous, but IMHO not for the reasons stated. It is ridiculous that anyone who has been around since longer than yesterday wouldn't expect bugs on release day(Wilco-created issues aside). It is equally ridiculous that people are so blindly devoted to one "team" or the other, that valid criticism can't be raised with out bunching up panties across the globe.Now, in regards to the Wilco partnership, just what do you expect people to do ? You say the beef with FeelThere is BS, yet you offer no alternatives. FeelThere has made what appears to be little to no effort to cover this situation(Wilco, etc.), and you'll have a hard time convincing me that they don't have some obligation to do so.You have a personal investment in FT that the rest of us don't. You have to realize that you can't possibly remain objective because of this, no ?

[Mike T 208]

I already HAVE the product:Please do not answer this e-mail which is sent automatically ===============================================E-MAIL AUTOMATIQUE - VEUILLEZ NE PAS REPONDRE !=============================================== Dear Customer, We would like to thank you for your order. Toussaint MichaelU.S.A.xxxxx@xxxxx.com Order: xxxxxx Date: 01-Feb-2007 Airbus Series Vol.1 Deluxe Edition CODE: xxxxxxxxxxx DOWNLOAD As you can see, I purchased the Deluxe edition.Now, you can pick and choose anything in my post you wish, but please point out in my post where I even MENTIONED PSS? This is the exact thing I'm talking about, you ignore the obvious, interject your own assumptions (incorrect), and post drivel about Staff Reviewing. Maybe you should REREAD my post and come again.However, I did notice that you did not wish to refute ANY of the list of bugs that were brought up regarding the aircraft. Why would that be? How now?

[Dillon 2,197]

"You have a personal investment in FT that the rest of us don't. You have to realize that you can't possibly remain objective because of this, no ?"Let me address this last statement. If a product was crap that I was involved in in any way I'd openly state that or stay quiet about the issue. I could care less if I'm asked back to help out again. The FeelThere 737 could have had a better VC. Feelthere should dump Wilco and move over to Flight1 or Simmarket, that's another one. The current Airbus has bugs that I and others weren't given the chance to address thanks to Wilco. Lou Betti doesn't have to ask me back on a DreamFleet project, me and Bill Leaming can stop being friends, and FeelThere/me can part ways. I'm not trying to snow anyone over and the reason I let people know I've been around is people have the tendency to take you as an uninformed at first glance. If I'm currently sitting here testing out the FT A320 how in the world can you tell me, "YOU are not responsible for, nor can you fix, any of the problems currently being discussed". You have no clue to what extent I do what. I have a vested interest in getting a product out I enjoy. Sometimes that's allot harder than it should be especially when it feels like at time your talking to a brick wall.

[Joe L 62]

Quote: "This whole beef with FeelThere is BS. Feelthere (not Wilco) are very much of the mindset of releasing the best product they possibly can."Beg to differ.FT has known about the issues with the quality of WILCO for several releases now. Yey, a common response when the going gets tough often is ".. folks we have nothing to do with the release contact WILCO. . ."Regarding the "mindset of RELEASING the best product they possibly can" sorry - but there are just too many simple bugs to buy that (let alone the major ones), and again hiding behind WILCO's skirt doesn't cut it.Really simple issues like:-annoying gap in the APU sound,-model issues with the 321 right wing-"Inoperative" placard on VC RMI and not on the 2D panel-totally wrong fuel capacities on the CJ version-hosed Config manager - look at the weight issues when setting up the 320 in lbs format - zfw off by some 20,000#-From WILCO's page"NEW : Ability to save your flights including ALL FMC programmed parameters." From the manual (ppgs 96-97)"I have saved my flight in FS while the aircraft was in flight. When I tried to reload it, the FMGC status was inconsistent. This is normal. (read the rest . . . again ppgs 96-97)And of course there is more.Yes I bought the AC knowing FT / WILCO past performance, yes I've been frustrated. But, I believe there is a lot of good too to this AC too, just not enough to offer a free pass to FT yet . . .Joe Lorenc

[Guest Water Mango]

"However, I did notice that you did not wish to refute ANY of the list of bugs that were brought up regarding the aircraft. Why would that be?"So what Mike... I have yet to checked everything on that list. What software have you seen released lately that doesn't have bugs. Wilco released this thing too early... FSX has bugs, Vista has bugs, Office 2007 has bugs, what's the point? All I'm saying is buy the product before you judge. Maybe my statement was misunderstood above but I never intended or insinuated you said anything about PSS. I was talking about Andreas...Now if you say this thing is worse than PSS's 4 year old Airbus I stand on what I said about Andreas. Let Feelthere fix the mess Wilco has made for them. Outside of that I don't feel this product is on the level of PSS's offering, it's a true hardcore simulation of the Airbus that needs refinement. I have every confidence FeelThere will address all problems. I don't need to waist time refuting what's on Andreas's list...