Feelthere and Wilco - Again

[Guest mt2608]

I know, there are lots of posts about this already, but they are starting to get quite heated, so wanted to put a pragmatic take on things.From someone who works in a customer service environment, it strikes me that both Wilco and FeelThere need to take some lessons! Clearly there has been some difference of opinion between the two, which is unlikely to be explained to us, but that is no excuse for them both to blame one another and ignore their customers altogether.The only person who comes out of this with any credit is Eric, who has done what he can to provide one-man support, but judging by recent posts he has got quite frustrated by the bashing that has gone on.Unfortunately because of the bad start, most people's minds were already made up long before they even flew the plane.Is it as bad as people say? Is it worse than other major releases within their first week. I would say not.Perhaps the wording on Wilco's website led people to believe things would be there, that clearly aren't. But again, we will never know how much of that was Wilco and how much was FeelThere.There are a few things that really should have been fixed by the time of release, for example the Boeing call-out sounds, but I'm sure the development team are suitably embarrassed and will make sure they are resolved in a service pack.I have bought almost all FeelThere products, and for my intermediate at best ability, they are great.But speaking as a customer here, I do believe that they should look to change their distribution methods at the next available opportunity. Wilco are just messy and cumbersome, and really do seem to have an issue with capacity planning. And the fact that you are limited in the number of downloads even for repaints is just petty. For me, I am happiest buying through Flight1 and SimMarket...and I hope that FeelThere move that way soon.I can understand that some people are frustrated, but if FeelThere receive constructive rather than emotive criticism, they can use it to not only improve this Airbus package, but also the remainder of the series.RegardsMark T

[Guest AOA]

First post eh???"I can understand that some people are frustrated, but if FeelThere receive constructive rather than emotive criticism, they can use it to not only improve this Airbus package, but also the remainder of the series."Exactly how many bad payware releases will it take before we stop hearing excuses?If Mark is to have his way it will never happen as he is of the touchy feely ilk that thinks if you are nice the payware developers will see the light and do it the right way the first time for a change.Believe me when I tell you that the only thing the developers and their distributers understand is money and the way to get them to improve their lousy releases is not to buy them the minute they come out.Pete

[Guest mt2608]

First post since re-registering account, but thanks for the welcome anyway!I am not expecting perfection first time. Can anyone think of a software package in any field that fitted that. I know the in-house developers where I work do a great job in keeping the rest of the IT department in employment and overtime!!But the flight sim community does seem to be particularly harsh on aircraft developers - scenery developers get away virtually scott free!I agree that some of the time, payware releases are rubbish, and there are developers I won't go near again, but in general they don't do a bad job. But I think a few of them suffer from poor customer service, not just FeelThere / Wilco.A lot of this stems from the impatience of the community - how many "When will it be released" posts do we see. Yet when things are released people say it isn't ready.But again, this impatience could be helped by keeping people informed. They seem to think the only options are an exact release date or no release date at all. I'm sure most of us are reasonable and would be ok with months, or even quarter of release. But often we don't get that.Again, sorry if this sounds like I am pro all payware developers. I'm not - I've wasted a lot of money on this hobby, but they aren't all as bad as is made out!Mark

[Brian Doney 127]

I dunno...I think there tends to be a bit too much emotion on both sides of the fence, and though it makes for immensely entertaining reading, the utility of it ends there.The feel-good, "HAY GUYS LETS JUST GIVE THEM A CHANCE !!1" posts, like yours Mark, can be just as damaging as the most scathing.It's not good enough just to state your complaints, make your reply, etc., no, you must also word it in a way that does the most damage, reads the most cleverly, plays to whatever certain emotion(s), etc.As these threads continue, you'll see as they wear on how the issues themselves eventually become lost in a battle of vitriolic oneupmanship, with a smattering of blind "loyalty". 'Tis the nature of the internets, I guess, or maybe I'm a blubbering idiot(most likely).

[Guest mt2608]

Brian,I'm sure that you're no more of a blubbering idiot than the rest of us!I appreciate that my opinion is no more right than anyone else's, and yes my opinion perhaps makes the developers think they have got it easy.But that said, when you see people like Eric Marciano posting very exasperated messages, you do wonder if people should try to be more "understanding".Eric has contributed a lot to FS, most of it free, and we need to keep people like him on-side so to speak.For me, the way forward for aircraft developers has to be a time-limited demo that is now commonplace with sceneries. At least this way people can make a more informed decision about parting with their money.Mark

[Guest Pilot533]

"But that said, when you see people like Eric Marciano posting very exasperated messages, you do wonder if people should try to be more "understanding"."Get real.

[Brian Doney 127]

Mark,"I'm sure that you're no more of a blubbering idiot than the rest of us!"Don't bet on it :-lol Eric may have done allot for the community with his freeware work, though I haven't used any of it myself, I can certainly understand the sentiment of respecting that. I don't agree that this carries over at all with any payware work he decides to offer, however. I just can't buy into that logic.I also don't think there is a specific "way forward" as you put it, nor is there a need. Keep the marketing, and the price, in line with whats actually being sold, and allot of the drama goes away.Other companies are managing this just fine, are they not ?It's often mentioned that, other products were released with bugs, etc., and this is of course very true. The difference I see with the highly regarded devs in the community, is that while they may have had initial troubles, they stuck with the product and saw it through to a state that eventually satisfied the overwhelming majority. IMHO, FeelThere really hasn't done this with any product they offer, some of them are indeed good, but only that, no better.Take overly-ambitious marketing, a relatively high price, a botched release, and what seems to be a fairly average product, and it's easy to see how they got themselves into hot water.

[Mike T 208]

Mark:I think the feel good kissie-kissie poo-poo charity train has left the station.The first thing you should do is stop making excuses for them. Ergo, I've said it before and I'd say it again, please don't point to other developer's releases and say its not as bad as other's in their first week. Feelthere is not the others, Feelthere doesn't share their profits with the others, and the others are not selling Feelthere's A320. Base EACH RELEASE on its own merit. Secondly, Wilco has just released a press release. In places outside of the Twilight Zone, most companies would not dare put out a press release like theirs especially when the product has more bugs than the Orkin Man could exterminate in a month. That shows me that Wilco has very little grounding in reality and very little understanding of the term 'FUBAR'. I would imagine a similar press release going something like this:Cunard Lines is pleased to announce the maiden Voyage of the the world's first unsinkable ship, the Titanic.Imagine if Cunard put that press release out 2 days after the Titanic sank! :-lolSo at the end of the day, if Wilco want's contructive criticism then they can have it during the beta test cycle. Once we enter the credit card machine cycle, the criticism becomes less contructive and more caustic. I would imagine if you bought a new car and on the way home from the dealer you turn on the radio and trunk opens, you turn on the winshield wiper and it accelerates to 100MPH and you step on the brake to find that it squirts you in the face with oil...tell me how contructive your criticism would be? I fail to understand the tolerance for none-sense within Fight Sim Products. Its almost as we see Flight Sim Products as we would a cute but stupid dog that no one expects can do any tricks and if in the odd case it rolls over or sits up we drool in glee. But for the most part all we are expecting it to do is look cute, eat, poop and scratch itself. I think that many of us have had it with the kumbiyah singing. Its time for them to step up to the plate do what they are supposed to do, or find another line of work. This is the real world, and we're talking real money and its time for developers like Wilco to GET REAL.

[Guest gmark]

Was feelin a bit softer after your post... even read the announcement on the AVSIM front page about tne new release... clicked the go to button... result was a timed out link to Wilcopub.com... oh well, tomorrow's another day.gmarkin fairness, the link was active later. maybe global warming or the forthcoming ice age played a role... your choice...

[mgh 89]

"I would imagine a similar press release going something like this:Cunard Lines is pleased to announce the maiden Voyage of the the world's first unsinkable ship, the Titanic.Imagine if Cunard put that press release out 2 days after the Titanic sank!"What an imagination - especially as the Titanic was owned by White Star not Cunard. But never mind, let's not let basic facts get in the way!

[Guest Dutch64]

>I can understand that some people are frustrated, but if>FeelThere receive constructive rather than emotive criticism,>they can use it to not only improve this Airbus package, but>also the remainder of the series.>>Regards>>Mark TMark, I agree and I would really like to do so but since it is impossible to register on their forum and since they don't answer any email, how to do so?I fly the plane, made some small adjustments and like it so far but I would like some support on some issues. That's my major problem, I simply cannot register and so don't have any way to ask for support or give constructive criticism.Martin

[Guest mt2608]

Martin,If what you say about FeelThere not giving you the opportunity to offer criticism is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it is yet another example of them shooting themselves in the foot.Or to put it another way - poor customer services, which has been a theme from my original post.I stand by MY OPINION that I have been perfectly happy with the FeelThere products that I have uses thus far, but the more time goes by, it does seem likely that this time they may have bitten off more than they can chew.Basically they were the first Airbus to market, and have released a product that doesn't meet the expectations of the customers.All we can hope that they do maintain some degree of loyalty to their customers and treat this product as a work in progress.I'm sure that is no comfort to those that have parted with money and been disappointed, but it is the only hope that we have at the minute.And a key to this ongoing improvement process is feedback from customers, so to go back to your post, I hope that they give people this opportunity.Yes over time and having read more, my defence of developer and distributor is getting more and more difficult, but whatever people may say, this is the best Airbus for FS9...even if it wins that title almost by default. So no doubt until AirlinerXP or whoever come along, there will be a large number of people enjoying it.Mark

[scoob 18]

martin:please check your avsim forum mailbox for assistance with your challenge.--

[Guest wyoming]

Because they take their time, are thorough and always try to bring something really new (therefore often succeeding). Obviously, they are in this business for more than the money and that shows. Of course, their A/C are not as complex as the ones we're talking about but not everything can be accounted for by this difference.

[DavidP 1,408]

The value of what someone has to say is not proportional to their number of posts! As you can see, my postings are very few, but I have been reading these boards for years, and have simmed since FS2!Quite frankly, I have never been too inspired to post as I am usually in fits of laughter at some of the drivel that gets posted on these boards by a lot of people who take it too seriously (and by the way, I have ALL of the add-ons going)David