I think I've had enough with GDI+ gauges

[Guest]

After seeing and reading about the AXP 320's gauges, I am so glad at least someone is moving beyond GDI. I just can't take it anymore...FS9 looks beautiful and runs amazing when I fly around in RealAir's Marchetti...but if I switch to something that uses GDI, like PMDG's 747 (I'm not knocking the 747, everything that uses GDI runs pretty bad) I get painfully slow FPS and update rates on the gauges. Thus I have to turn everything else down and FS9 no longer looks nearly as good. To me, it seems like a totally inefficient way of doing things. And I can't imagine what it would do to a sim like FSX - I don't even want to think about it. The word "unusable" comes to mind. Does anyone else feel the same way? I hope the AXP comes through with its promises and maybe spurs other developers to come up with similar solutions.

[Guest DreamFleet]

Hi Alex,I appreciate your remarks, and I know I shouldn't even post to this, but I do have to say, in order to set the record straight, that the technology AXP is using for its "EFIS" (what was shown in the video) is basically what Reality XP has had for a while. It is "True Display XP", and has been available on their add-on "Jet Line" EFIS gauges for, I dunno, three years or more? This is nothing new, except that now you are seeing it incorporated in a jet airliner.Remember the FMS that Reality XP was doing, and someone here recently posted that they "promised" it but never delivered it? Well, guess what, Reality XP never used the word "promise". They just said they were working on it and, guess what, we are delivering it, in the A320! It is just not going to be an independent add-on (at least for now), because anyone who know FMS knows that does not make much sense, as you will also need all the other relevant systems to go with it (autopilot, etc.) and will also need an aircraft and flight dynamics to support it.Some folks do not own the Jet Line EFIS gauges, so they do not know about about their smooth, efficient performance, and have not seen them in action. Even the video we showed does not do True Display XP justice, due to the nature of videos.The same applies to the weather radar (RXP's had that for a few years too) and terrain display. Nothing new. Reality XP pioneered terrain display, and the ability to read FS scenery mesh with their Sandel 3400 well over a year ago (without need for a huge data base of terrain info). Again, it's all just incorporated into one product.Now, some things we are doing are new, such as our new gauge frame work, and the overall product, which basically runs outside of FS, and makes FS do what we need it to do. Example: Our high-res- 32 bit graphics for the 2D cockpit which have basically no frame rate hit. Now, that is new.The 3D stuff we're doing is new also, and we have yet to really show that.I just wanted to point out that we had replaced GDI+ a while ago, just never in a complete aircraft product. There's nothing to "promise" when it comes to the EFIS, as it already exists and is available in the market. We're just using the same technology in the A320.Thanks again. :)Regards, Lou Bettihttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/AXP/AXPforumbanner.jpg

[virtuali 4,421]

To dispel the popular notion about "GDI+ is slow":GDI+ can be slow or fast, depending if the developer knows how to use it, knows which functions calls are slow and which ones are fast (and, unfortunately, those that "looks" fast on paper because are just a single command, are much slower in reality than the more complex ones).If you want proof that GDI+ CAN be fast, smooth and fps friendly, just download (if you don't have it already) Cloud9 MB339 Trial or Cloud9 F4 Phantom Trial:http://www.fscloud9.com/php/products.php?lang=EN&id=95http://www.fscloud9.com/php/products.php?lang=EN&id=115These two airplanes received a lot of praise for having smooth needles, high refresh rates and of course good graphics with full antialiasing and sub-pixel accuracy.Note that both (expecially the F4) have many complex panels with 40+ gauges simultaneously present on screen, and are almost completely analog panels, something that, according to another popular myth, is not even possible to do in GDI+. Also, there was no "saving" of graphic quality, all gauges have glass reflection over the needles, needles with shadows and even multi-needle instrumants with topmost needles that draw their ahsdows on the needle below, no compromises were made on the eye-candy factor, but still the fps is unquestionably very good.These gauges are GDI+ and still fast, because they used a specially developed C++ framework that "helps" GDI+ doing things that would be otherwise slow, and ONLY calls functions that were individually profiled to be fast enough for the task.Remember that GDI+ IS hardware accelerated, the problem is that not *all* of it is. It's enough to use a few of non-acellerated calls to slow down a gauge, but as long as the developer knows which functions to use and which ones to avoid, the performance level is more than satisfactory.Please, have a look at the MB339 or at the Phantom, you'll probably start questioning why everything that uses GDI+ is slow *except* Cloud9's stuff...

[kerosene31 349]

I don't own the PMDG 747 (no time for the long hauls), but in the 737 you can adjust the gauge fps rate right in the menu.

[ErnieAlston 33]

>Remember the FMS that Reality XP was doing, and someone here>recently posted that they "promised" it but never delivered>it? Well, guess what, Reality XP never used the word>"promise". They just said they were working on it and, guess>what, we are delivering it, in the A320! It is just not going>to be an independent add-on (at least for now), because anyone>who know FMS knows that does not make much sense, as you will>also need all the other relevant systems to go with it>(autopilot, etc.) and will also need an aircraft and flight>dynamics to support it.RXP did at least imply that they were working on a FMS for the Jetline series. They even gave it a name 'JetLine C'.Its understandble that in the process of development things happened and they changed project direction and scope (happens all the time).But they did indeed lead many of us 'Jetline' customers to believe a compatible FMS for our jetline gauges was forthcoming. You can't blame some for being frustrated that never came to fruition after waiting a long time for it.To imply AXP will be the fruition of Jetline C I don't believe is correct , AXP is clearly a different animal with a much broader scope.Regards.Ernie.

[Guest]

>I don't own the PMDG 747 (no time for the long hauls), but in>the 737 you can adjust the gauge fps rate right in the menu. exactly.I do get low FPS flying in the queen, but it happens with all complicated VCs

[Guest jgreth123]

>>I don't own the PMDG 747 (no time for the long hauls), but>in>>the 737 you can adjust the gauge fps rate right in the menu.>>>>exactly.>>I do get low FPS flying in the queen, but it happens with all>complicated VCsO Rly? :) I think that bubble is about to be popped.

[Guest]

I know that. In fact, the sliders are as low as they go and, in my opinion it still leaves a lot to be desired.

[N400QW 205]

>To dispel the popular notion about "GDI+ is slow":>>GDI+ can be slow or fast, depending if the developer knows how>to use it, knows which functions calls are slow and which ones>are fast (and, unfortunately, those that "looks" fast on paper>because are just a single command, are much slower in reality>than the more complex ones).>>If you want proof that GDI+ CAN be fast, smooth and fps>friendly, just download (if you don't have it already) Cloud9>MB339 Trial or Cloud9 F4 Phantom Trial:>>http://www.fscloud9.com/php/products.php?lang=EN&id=95>http://www.fscloud9.com/php/products.php?lang=EN&id=115>>These two airplanes received a lot of praise for having smooth>needles, high refresh rates and of course good graphics with>full antialiasing and sub-pixel accuracy.>>Note that both (expecially the F4) have many complex panels>with 40+ gauges simultaneously present on screen, and are>almost completely analog panels, something that, according to>another popular myth, is not even possible to do in GDI+.>Also, there was no "saving" of graphic quality, all gauges>have glass reflection over the needles, needles with shadows>and even multi-needle instrumants with topmost needles that>draw their ahsdows on the needle below, no compromises were>made on the eye-candy factor, but still the fps is>unquestionably very good.>>These gauges are GDI+ and still fast, because they used a>specially developed C++ framework that "helps" GDI+ doing>things that would be otherwise slow, and ONLY calls functions>that were individually profiled to be fast enough for the>task.>>Remember that GDI+ IS hardware accelerated, the problem is>that not *all* of it is. It's enough to use a few of>non-acellerated calls to slow down a gauge, but as long as the>developer knows which functions to use and which ones to>avoid, the performance level is more than satisfactory.>>Please, have a look at the MB339 or at the Phantom, you'll>probably start questioning why everything that uses GDI+ is>slow *except* Cloud9's stuff...>>Couldn't agree more:-) Developers who have been doing a little "homework" quickly recognise the difference between "smoke and mirrrors hyperbole" and what is really possible with GDI+ and AA and Subpixel Resolution inside and outside the sim.:-)It is of interest to note that no developer has "invented" a new process, just polished a set of criteria and techniques and marketed it:-)This means that users will be able to enjoy the best of GDI+ benefits from many different sources and the hobby will be better for it:-)

[Guest DreamFleet]

Lou reads Ron Hamilton's post.Lou remembers that Ron is long time "friend" (he used to be doing repaints for DF aircraft before starting up ESDG), and is talking about something else.Lou scratches his head.Lou has a good laugh.Lou remembers that Ron is a friend.Lou remembers that Ron does not have the code for True Display XP, and really knows nothing about it and, as such, what he says does not apply to it, as it certainly could not. One can't comment about what they do not know about.Lou realizes that Ron is just trying to make him laugh.Lou realizes that Ron is succeeding in doing so! :-lol:-lol:-lol:-lolThanks, Ron! I needed a good laugh today! :)Regards, Lou Bettihttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/AXP/AXPforumbanner.jpg

[N400QW 205]

Ha Ha,Ron reads Lou's post and remembers well the friendship that Lou has expressed and goes along with the laugh:-) Ron remembers fondly the repaints he did for the DF C177 CDs along with the ones he did for Flight One Cessna 421 Twin CDs back in the day. Those were some good times and a lot of takeoffs and landings have happened since then:-)Ron reads further and acknowledges that Ron does not have, and has no need for TDXP code:-) Ron reads and replys to the Cloud9 poster who outlines in a very straightforward way the advantages of various techniques and criteria for C++ and GDI+ along with AGG technology for AA subpixel rendering either OUTSIDE the sim or INSIDE the sim and not only agrees with the Cloud9 poster but states that developers who have been "doing their homework" will cause flight sim enthusiast everywhere to be very pleased with the results of their labors:-)Ron rereads the two responses to make sure he is being accurate in his responses along with making Lou laugh, and sure enough, he is accurate when he states that to date: No vendor has "invented" a process that is not freely available to others who wish to apply the same techniques and build their own framework:-)Ron is quite aware of what he is talking about when it comes to interaction between various programmers we have the privilege of working with :-)Ron is glad to see that Vendors such as Cloud9 are unafraid to shatter few of the myths propogated by some re: GDI+ and its use in flight simulation now and going forward. Ron is also glad to see that Lou needed and got a good laugh today:-)

[Guest]

Alex likes apple pie.

[Guest DreamFleet]

So do I, I also like Ron's jokes! ;)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[N400QW 205]

Apple pie with plenty of cinnamon...um um good:-) That pumpkin pie with fresh whipped cream is pretty good too:-) Man you guys just made me hungry for pie:-)

[protzler 0]

The best: Apple pie in a bowl of milk, warmed.Sounds gross, but it's the best!