Airline line flying

[klamal 282]

First off, let me start with the usual...Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere already. But, I have done some searching and can't really find the answers I'm looking for so far.My question has to do with simulating real world airline pilot line flying or maybe aircraft planning. I would like to do this with real world schedules from the airlines. I used to work for an airline and have a copy of the last route schedule(not sure the proper terminology) before I left the company. With this route schedule, I am able to start at airport AAA with tail number N#### with scheduled departure of 630a just like an aircraft would do for real and fly to BBB with scheduled arrival of 900a. Then, from BBB to CCC. Then from CCC to DDD. Anyway, you get the point. Each scheduled leg would appear for that given tail number for a given day of the week.I know airlines do this schedule planning of their aircrafts/pilots. Is this data accessible anywhere?So, now, I'd like to fly real lines for a different airline. Where can I find actual schedule planning for aircraft?I have been downloading the AI flight plans from here and then deciphering them and going off that. That does work for this purpose. However, these flight plans show actual departure and arrival times at the airports. What I would like to have is like what I have for the airline I used to work for which displays the scheduled departure/arrival times that a passenger would expect. That way, I can know whether I am "on time" along the route. Make sense? I know I could also take and reference the flight number from the AI plan to the company's website to get the schedule too, just wondering if what I have from the airline itself is available anywhere out there for other airlines?Thanks.

[Guest PARADISE]

I not sure if this would help but check out the payware add-on Ultimate Traffic, it has most of the world's airlines and their schedules. Their latest update is summer of '06, I believe, so they may be close to releasing another updated schedule.There are also ways to incorporate your own airlines and/or tail numbers. I'm not sure if you can change schedule times though.John M

[klamal 282]

Actually, I have Ultimate Traffic. But, it can't do aircraft route planning(as far as I have seen). It just creates a pdf schedule that you would get if you went to an airline's website and downloaded one of theirs. While this does show the scheduled departure/arrival times, it does not do it by aircraft. It just shows all the airports and all the flight arrival/departure times to/from that airport.The information that I use now from the airline I used to work for has an aircraft type listed with a starting airport of AAA and an ending point of ZZZ. Then, in that row, it shows scheduled times for each leg along the way from AAA to ZZZ. Maybe there's no way I can get that for other airlines without working for them. :)

[Guest PARADISE]

As you may know already, airlines schedule particular tail numbers to fly particular routes everyday by their dispatch offices, however these are subject to change as airplanes are delayed due to weather,traffic volumes or maintenance problems. For example, if XXX Airlines has a 757 scheduled to fly route AAA D BBB D CCC and back again, but is severely delayed at BBB then they may have to fly another aircraft (if available) for the remainder of the days schedule from CCC, even if this happens to be a 737, or cancel all the days remaining flights.You may have to use your imagination to fly your scheduled air routes.John M

[CV990A 0]

>First off, let me start with the usual...Sorry if this has>been discussed elsewhere already. But, I have done some>searching and can't really find the answers I'm looking for so>far.>>My question has to do with simulating real world airline pilot>line flying or maybe aircraft planning. I would like to do>this with real world schedules from the airlines. I used to>work for an airline and have a copy of the last route>schedule(not sure the proper terminology) before I left the>company. With this route schedule, I am able to start at>airport AAA with tail number N#### with scheduled departure of>630a just like an aircraft would do for real and fly to BBB>with scheduled arrival of 900a. Then, from BBB to CCC. Then>from CCC to DDD. Anyway, you get the point. Each scheduled>leg would appear for that given tail number for a given day of>the week.>>I know airlines do this schedule planning of their>aircrafts/pilots. Is this data accessible anywhere?>>So, now, I'd like to fly real lines for a different airline. >Where can I find actual schedule planning for aircraft?>>I have been downloading the AI flight plans from here and then>deciphering them and going off that. That does work for this>purpose. However, these flight plans show actual departure>and arrival times at the airports. What I would like to have>is like what I have for the airline I used to work for which>displays the scheduled departure/arrival times that a>passenger would expect. That way, I can know whether I am "on>time" along the route. Make sense? I know I could also take>and reference the flight number from the AI plan to the>company's website to get the schedule too, just wondering if>what I have from the airline itself is available anywhere out>there for other airlines?>>Thanks.I hope I understand your question correctly, but most major airlines this day have electronic timetable's you can download from their site, the info you can find on these timetables are, departure and arrival time (local time), duration of flight, aircraft type and length of the flight (in SM and KM) for those timetables:American Airlines + Oneworldhttp://www.aa.com/aa/i18nForward.do?anchor...metable.jsp#one United Airlineshttp://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,...itle=timetablesDelta Airlineshttp://www.delta.com/schedules/travel/rese...sched/index.jspStar Alliancehttp://www.staralliance.com/en/travellers/..._timetable.htmlSkyteamhttp://www.skyteam.com/EN/travelPlanner/timetables/index.jsphope this helps :)-Sander

[klamal 282]

John,Right. I understand that a particular tail number may have to get swapped out at some point during the day in real life for whatever reason. I'm not really concerned with that though for what I do.I may not be explaining this using the appropriate terminology. But, what I am doing now with my current data from the past airline is flying a particular route for a particular aircraft through that given day. Again, I know in the real world things may happen that cause this aircraft to be "done for the day", but that is not what I am looking for or care about. The current routing data that I have now starts at AAA and ends the day some 5-10 legs later in ZZZ. Anyway, each leg in between is a published flight with a flight number, scheduled departure and arrival times. So, I am basically assuming to be the crew for this aircraft all day - that is my "line" to fly that day.It adds that extra structure to my simulating the airline pilot life. So, I am not firing up FS and saying where should I go. I am starting it up with a pre-assigned route for that day(like flying my assigned "line" - I think that's what pilots and flight attdts call their scheduled routing for the day???)Does that explain it any better?

[klamal 282]

Thanks, but not exactly what I am looking for. I know that I can get a timetable from each airline's web site. However, this just tells me their scheduled flights that a passenger would use to create an itinerary. It doesn't mean much to me if I were an actual pilot that had to fly the plane. That plane, has to go from point a and end up at point z sometime later that day and then the plane sits overnight at z.Now, what I am simulating by just following the aircraft scheduled routing is an assigned "line" from company dispatch. I guess a real crew would not necessarily stay with a particular aircraft for it's whole day. Crews would change along the way, but that aircraft is still going to go to point z. But, in absence of having someone dispatch a "line" to me, I just stick with that aircraft for the day and that determines my "line". Make sense?I am looking for a pre-assigned routing of an aircraft for the day(aircraft schedule). For example, if you look in an AI flight plan and decipher it, it will say aircraft N345SD is going to fly from AAA to BBB leaving at 0634 and arriving at 0856 with flight number 1234 and cruise altitude of FL300. That's it's first flight for the day. Then, it goes to it's next leg with origin BBB and destination CCC. Maybe it has the same flight number, maybe it changes. Anyway, it has it's day scheduled/predetermined(assuming no mechanical or weather problems).So, say I want to fly with an Alaska Airlines plane right now. I want to fly an actual routing for a particular tail number that an actual Alaska Airlines plane would fly. It may start it's day in Anchorage and end it back in Anchorage. But, during that day, it could have gone to 6 other cities before calling it a day back in Anchorage.I know this probably seems a little nuts to be looking for something like this. After all, I could just get in and fly picking my next destination and pretending it's assigned by someone to me or even randomly generate some legs to fly via some program or script. But, I want to fly the actual route that an actual airline's plane flies. I didn't know if this aircraft routing data was available anywhere. I mean, people that make real AI flight plans have to get this info from somewhere, right?

[Mike T 208]

Hi:What you are looking for is a pilot's bid packet which is what's used for line flying. Only the bid packet will have the trip pairings that show you what the pilots will do over the course of the day or multiple days. Pilots bid on the pairings for the aircraft, schedule and position they can hold as determined by seniorityI assume you are looking for something that resembles this:EWR COA pairing 1011 - 735 CaptainApril 2007--Day 1--EWR 0900 IAH 1341IAH 1400 ELP 1545ELP 1630 IAH 1755Trip: 7:55Layover: 21:00 I'm assuming you want to follow this pilot's schedule. This is information you cannot get from an airline schedule.This is a typical 'day 1 pairing' of a multiple day trip, for a KEWR based 735 Captain since the last leg of the first day doesn't end back in KEWR, which is the crew domicile. The rest of the pairing will show the schedule for the next 2,3 or 4 days as well as the length of each layover, the name of the hotel and how much flight time its worth. These are put together by crew scheduling each month and you bid for the schedule you want (read: can hold by your seniority). This is assuming you can hold a line and are not on reserve, in which case you will get your pairing when your beeper goes off and you pull it up when you get to the crewroom.These pairings are only available to airline personnel and is the only way to determine what you, as the pilot, will be doing and not what the aircraft is doing. The trip pairings have nothing to do with the ship number and are built around the airlines flight schedule which is readily available.Edit: At COA, the pilots and flight attendants stay together for the whole trip so their pairings are similar. At UAL, the crews do not always stay together. Trip pairings do not give flight routing, ship number or any other info except your schedule. Ask a flight attendant if he / she can get you a pilot's bid packet or a pilot for his / her bid packet. They are usually plenty sitting around in the crewroom or he or she can simply go into online crew access and print one out for you.

[klamal 282]

Yeah. That's what would be ideal. Assuming I had someone that could give me new ones after I completed each day's worth of trips. That's why I use the planned routes for the aircraft instead. Because I can pick an aircraft and fly that aircraft's routes for the day. Then, when I get to the final destination airport, I "overnight" there with the plane and then pick a new aircraft route that originates in the city I just ended up in the night before. With the aircraft routes, I always have new day's routes available(that are usually different routings). While obtaining pilot's bid packets would be even more realistic, I would think it would be harder for me to come by those on a regular basis for the different airlines I may want to fly.So, I am guessing then that aircraft schedules(like I have now from my past employer) are not available anywhere, right?

[mwilk 1,104]

I work for US Airways at DFW. Our aircraft routings for the next day come out sometime in the evening but they are updated for weather and maintenance almost hourly. Those routings change every day. I don't think that info is available to the public in any form.

[Guest PARADISE]

I see now what you were after. If you have no luck getting the bid packages you could always make your own. You could use your UT time tables to see where particular flights originate and end. Then just "simulate" a bid package for those flights.I spent one bitterly cold winter day once, flight simming a Southwest flight from KLAS D KHOU D KBHM D KBWI, (actually two different flight numbers), using actual times from their flight schedule. I live near KBWI and when my simmed flight was approaching the airport I looked out my 'real' window and saw a Southwest 737 on final. I always wondered, since I was within 5 min of the actual flight's ETA, am I as good as them?.........Nahhh, I'm better;) John M

[klamal 282]

Yep. That's pretty much what I do too when I fly other airlines that I don't have the aircraft routing data for. I use the AI flight plans available from here and/or Ultimate Traffic and then follow an aircraft through it's day and consider that my assigned "line". :)I was just curious if this aircraft routing data was available somewhere, say in a DOT or FAA database? Or, if one of these tracking websites tracks the tail number for the whole day? I have just started looking at a couple of them to see what kind of data they keep track of and what I can search for. Just haven't found a site that lets me see where tail number N##### has gone all day or what it's schedule is for the day.

[Guest PARADISE]

Have you looked at www.flightaware.com?JOhn M

[Mike T 208]

The bid packages cover one entire month at a time. If you are senior enough, you know your flight schedule, destination and days off once your line is awarded. Unfortunately, bid packets are not available anywhere except from the airline you are working for and you need a username and password to enter the online crew management system like SONIC, etc to get it in electronic form, or have someone give you it in hardcopy which can be hundreds of pages since the packet covers all aircraft and positions.For instance, if you are a 737-500 Captain, you can bid for 777-200 First Officer if you thought you were senior enough to hold it. If you were awarded that aircraft (not very likely) you would not actually fly your line award for the month, instead you would end up in training until you pass your IOE (Initial Operating Experience) flight at which point you'd become a 777 line first officer. However, many pilots don't bother bidding other aircraft for their entire career. I digress...even after bids are awarded, there are always lots of extra bid packets laying around the crewroom because pilots and flight attendants need them to drop and trade trip pairings which allows them to drop or pick up flight time or move around their days off. Most of this is now done online remotely or at the computers in the crew room so hardcopies of bid packets are becoming pretty scarce.Here is a link with more about bidding:http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/35/58/Unfortunately, if you don't know a pilot, flight attendant or ground crew who can wander into the crewroom and pick one up or print one out for ya, you will not be able to get your hands on one.

[Mike T 208]

Just remember that most pilots don't keep the same ship all day. If your trip routes you through a hub, you are guranteed to pick up another ship and wander all over the terminal running between gates.Low fare airline pilots like Southwest, Jetblue, ATA, etc. will stay with their ship much more often though since a crew may fly 3 legs before hitting a hub and swapping ships. Hub and spoke airlines like COA, UAL, DAL, AA, etc won't keep a ship for more than 1 or 2 legs assuming a straight through flight like COA pairing TPA-MCO-EWR (where the hub is EWR).However, if your day looks like this EWR-MCO-EWR-IAD, you are guranteed to swap your aircraft twice.