Avsim no longer respects warnings over pirated files

[Guest]

Gents:I want to thank the level headed responders to this thread. I am the library manager who processed the file. The author in question has been notified that he should be crediting the original authors and to also look at his file again. I believe from one response I received that he simply had chosen the wrong category. He selected 'original aircraft' and it should have been a 'repaint'. Inexperience can be a terrible thing. On another note....if we volunteers have go over the thousands of files with a fine tooth comb then their will be fewer files and they will be a lot slower getting into the library. And finally I must admit to being human and therefore capable of making a mistake and I think this author is the same. RegardsRick CaseAvsim Library Manager

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"AVSIM were right to remove your files when you complained because you are the owner.My point is that AVSIM should not be expected to respond to 3rd party complaints, which are effectively anonymous. AVSIM could determine that you are the owner by checking the e-mail address of your complaint with the e-mail address you gave when you originally uploaded the fles.Anyway, if a 3rd party is really concerned, he can use the e-mail address of the owner in the original upload to let him know what's happened. The owner himself can then take it from there."That's not always possible, and in the interim, an owner's file can be fronted for someone else's for days, sometimes weeks. When I am overseas sometimes a week or more can go by before I can get to email. We're not talking about a "hunch" that the file was used without credit to Melvin. We're talking about concrete evidence--Melvin's file, and no credit in the readme or file description.I would hope if someone saw my work (and it's happened once where someone did) passed of as someone else's work, they'd be able to alert the library managers. In turn, the library managers should do what they used to do--remove the file after validating the writer's concerns, contact the "owner", and give the owner a chance to upload the package once they've given credit to the author(s) involved. I don't care if the person sending the alert is Mickey Mouse--if the alert is valid, it should be treated as such.Someone else asked why wouldn't the uploader at least rename the model file in question. Because the assumption many uploaders make is no one looks or cares. From some of the responses here, where I seem to be the one who's considered the "bad guy" in my concern, that assumption looks pretty valid to me. -John Mods, please feel free to move this to the file library forum...

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Maybe we need to give Mr Levy the benefit of the doubt here and wait for his reply."Given the upload ended up in the "Original Aircraft" category if not a pirate, the style of his uploads shows a disregard for the rights and concerns and work of other authors. He's actually uploaded more packages in the past in the same manner--this one only caught my eye because it was listed as an "original aircraft" and I wanted to see what the new 777 was. Other new aircraft have been released under virtual airline banners before...-John

[mgh 89]

If it's not possible for a 3rd party to contact the original owner then it's unlikely that AVSIM would be able to, so the upload would remain - unless of course you expect AVSIM to remove uploads without investigation on the basis of a 3rd party's complaint. Anyway, where's the actual harm in letting it remain while the investigation is carried out?You may have concrete evidence about the file itself but you present no evidence that the original owner didn't give permission to upload it or that the original owner wants it removed. That is why it's essential that the original owner is involved. Otherwise an upload could be removed on the basis of a 3rd party complaint when the original owner didn't care!Finally, I reiterate my point that I believe it's impractical and unreasonable to expect AVSIM's library managers to get involved in the amount of work necessary to verify a 3rd party's claims.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Finally, I reiterate my point that I believe it's impractical and unreasonable to expect AVSIM's library managers to get involved in the amount of work necessary to verify a 3rd party's claims."Difference of opinion. Let's leave it at that. It's a change of policy at Avsim, that's what I wanted to point out. I don't agree with it. 'Nuff said

[Chase 303]

There was no change in policy here at AVSIM. The point of the matter is, as others have stated, we can't just pull a file unless the actual owner of the copyright complains to us. We have always been very fast in doing so when it isn't a third party. When it is a third party, that leads us to investigating, and we are not judges. We are simply volunteers doing our part at AVSIM. If we were to make the wrong call, it wouldn't be the complainant being scruffed, it would be our tails.With that said, all we can do, to keep it fair in all terms, is to leave the file and tell the complainant that the original author needs to validate such claims.Just a perspective.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Chase,In the past Rick had always pulled a file if I brought this type of issue to the library staff's attention. This is the first time that hasn't happened, and I've emailed in at least a dozen alerts. I would hope as freeware authors we are allowed to keep an eye out for each other, and that if you were alerted someone was parading my work as their own (which has happened here) by another party, you would respond and not wait for me to discover it on my own. It's not always easy to keep an eye on a file library as a copyright owner. If you disbelieve what I am saying (about Avsim heeding such alerts in the past), I can send you as many examples as you like from my Inbox.Regards,John

[Chase 303]

I'd also like to add that we have prevented innocent misunderstandings leading to deletion in the past with this process (similar to this scenario). When we remove a file it's the community that suffers.Our statement is this:"PROTEST POLICY: If your upload is protested by a community member for reasons of copyright infringement, unobtained permissions, or for any other justifiable reason, AVSIM will automatically remove your file until such time as the protest is resolved. Resolution is the responsibility of the protester and the uploader. We do not mediate protests."You may be saying, "yeah, well it is a community member," but how would that community member and the uploader mediate if neither of them are the copyright holders? So it's assumed that it is the original author.Another key point: we do not mediate for a simple reason. We all lead very busy lives just like all of our users.It seems that all of the posters in this thread understand that and support our decision so far, so I will leave it that. If there are any further questions, please do not hesitate to leave a post here or e-mail me directly.

[Chase 303]

John,I'm not questioning your integrity. I admire your steadfastness to defend fellow authors, however, you must understand AVSIM's role in such a case. We aren't saying we are going to wait for the author to discover it on their own, but as in the past, we have e-mailed them asking.As I previously stated, we have had instances like this in the past, and they generally turn up negative. I'm just saying it's better safe than sorry when it comes to stepping on someones feet.

[Guest RonB49]

Hi Chase,I must agree with John here. In the past, the policy was, "Shoot first," ('... AVSIM will automatically remove your file ...' "and ask questions later." ('... until such time as the protest is resolved. ...') It seems that this policy has changed; if so, then the "PROTEST POLICY" should be reworded.The new policy is more popular with rank and file users but seems at odds with the stated intentions of this site concerning copyright protection.R-

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Hello from Cairo. I have a really good idea. How about we just shut the friggen library down. That way, we will make everyone happy, original authors, wanna be enforcers, and those who are offended at the absence of credit, no matter the degree. I am really fed up with this kind of stuff. We try to do the right thing for everyone, and that isn't good enough. Our volunteers bust their #### to keep you folks happy, and that too isn't good enough. John, if you have a problem, which you have had MANY times in the past, then just leave as you have threatened to do before. If you have a problem with our policies, then send me flippin email. Your public posting of this kind of crap tells me a lot.

[AWACS 12]

>>How about we just shut the friggen library down<

[Trans_27 Pilot Chase 59]

>>>How about we just shut the friggen library down<<>>No, don't do that, I need it, if Avsim didn't have a library>I'd be forced to go over to flightsim.com with a 20 kb/s>download speed and a one hour time limit, no thanks!>>JeffNot me... Id just uninstall flightsim.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Here's your flippin email. You go to friggin' #### Tom. Kick me out, I really don't give a flying leap how that makes you feel in Cairo. If you want to use my post as a threat to remove the library that is quite telling. So please remove all my files from this library immediately. That's what you can do with your friggin' library.J

[Chase 303]

That's a big 10-4, adios.Status update: Files removed.