Real World Heavy Commerical Training

[Guest william273]

well, by heavy yea i meant heavy but what i was looking for was what the regional guys were saying even though there is a difference between the two. even though the CRJ and Embraer are in a different class i include them too. i just wanted to find out about how and what these guys practice in the sim and things like that. since i probably won't be getting in one but i'd kind of like to hear about what all is involved. william

[LeFreak 0]

>Yes true, I assume he is talking about majors and not>regionals since the title of his post is "Real World Heavy>Commercial Training". Last time I checked regional airlines>don't fly heavies so pointing out regional hiring practices>would be irrelevent.>>Regionals are hiring out of ab initio training with less than>500 hours but that is to fly aircraft UP TO ERJ and CRJ class>aircraft, which are actually easier to fly than turboprobs>(which are being phased out at most larger regional carriers>anyway). Which major carrier do you know is hiring jet pilots>with 500 hours with no turbine and no PIC? >>I'm not speaking from speculation, I'm speaking from>experience and I tell you that your resume' will get thrown in>the garbage if you submit it to a major with 500 TT and no>turbine PIC. >>Regards,>>Mike T.Well, my airline is a national carrier with a fleet of Avro RJ's, Boeing 737, Airbus A319 and Airbus A330 .. not exactly what I would call a regional carrier .. to give you a hint it used to be called Sabena .. on the avro we perfom medium-haul operations with flights up to 3 hours .. Saying that regional jets are easier to fly than turboprops is absolute bulls**t .. every plane has its own characteristics and difficulties .. and i'm pretty #### sure if you train for a fokker 50 or a boeing 747, procedures will be similar to what I described .. (and yes i know people flying on the Fokker 50 and the B747) .. I cannot understand why you americans always make the difference between the regionals and the majors .. both types of companies employ pilots .. we are all airline pilots, no matter if you fly a CRJ or the A380 .. maybe you guys should convert to JAA standards ..i have friends flying the B757 and A300 straight from ab initio, major carriers like British Airways and KLM/Air France hire ab initios .. Safety standards in Europe are very high, and i think we can say that our training and safety records has proven that it works ..

[Guest william273]

LeFreak when you fly a manual landing at what point during the approach/landing do you come off the autopilot and begin hand flying? william

[LeFreak 0]

it depends .. sometimes i disconnect and handfly from above fl100, and sometimes i disconnect as soon as the rwy is in sight .. only times we do an autoland is in cat 3 conditions or for certification purposes, otherwise we always manualy land .. for departures i always handfly up to FL100, and depending on the departure i sometimes fly as high as top of climb manualy (which on the avro the highest can be FL350) .. flying is too much fun do let the autopilot do all the work, and in our company we are blessed that we are still allowed to fly manualy as much as we want .. it certainly helps keeping your flying skills up to level ..Jan

[Guest william273]

i was kind of under the impression that alot of airlines prefer the pilots using the autopilot because it's smoother for the passengers or something along those lines. i wouldn't care to much for the auto-land myself. i'm just talking approach/landing here not enroute. so it varies from airline to airline then? i just edited this so i don't know if it will post twice or not. thanks, william

[aerdt 0]

It depends from airline to airline. Most airlines (especially in the US) have a cooperation with one or more flight schools and/or regional carriers, some have a 100% in-house training (mostly European carriers).Usually you start with a PPL, then get your IFR and multi-engine rating and then either work for a dime and a half on charter flights, then after you get a turbine rating you train on one specific airplane and log anywhere from 1500 to 3000 hours with the small regional carrier... and then you might be lucky to get hired as a FO by a major airline.I started my (very brief) career with Lufthansa and all my training was in-house (in huge education centers in Bremen, Hamburg and Frankfurt) and it did not require any previous flight experience or knowledge. About 20 candidates a year were selected from about 600 applications and were put through an excellent training program (for pretty much free, LH paid for the training). I was one of them, but got unlucky, because after the training just about 50% of the candidates were hired and got further training for their type rating and the rest (incl. me) was placed on a waiting list to hire. Decided that it wasn't for me and changed careers and now carry virtual passengers ;)As far as landings: I cannot count the landings anymore, but it must have been anywhere from a few hundred to thousands, both in the simulator and in real-life under all circumstances (visual, CAT I-III) and emergencies (engine out, gear stuck, no flaps, no speedbrakes, no radio). The ratio of simulator time to real flight time was about 80% simulator and 20% real life, but I don't know, if that's true for the type ratings as well, as I never had a chance to complete it.Pat

[Guest william273]

wow, the waiting list was a real let down for sure...sorry to hear about that but i'm sure the fs passengers are happy you're their PIC. roger the schools, i wasn't sure how all that was setup i guess it varies too. that's interesting. 20 out of 600? if i knew that before starting i probably won't even bother and just fly for FS instead. those sim rides sound intense. so if you can remember your first few sim experiences in a jet, in what kind of order did they start you like as far as easy to difficult? something like a clear weather landing to get to know the aircraft then slowly add weather/wind conditions? i'm not talking all at once but over a period of sim rides. thanks alot pat, william

[aerdt 0]

Well, I found out that you have to be really, really, really into flying for a major carrier, which involves pretty much dedicating most of your time to aviation, meaning long hours away from home and irregular holidays and time off. Of course, you'll get time off and the job pays very well, but I think it might be sometimes hard to juggle the timetables around with family and virtually eliminates the ability to be spontaneous.A very, very good read are posts of real life pilots on airliners.net. Some guy from Southwest wrote a really detailed blog of all the ups and downs of flying for a major carrier. Search for "Pilot Report" in the "Trips" forum.Good luck,Pat

[Guest william273]

haven't been there in awhile so i'll check it out. thanks for the heads up. william

[LeFreak 0]

during my integrated ATPL training, (that is a training from 0 hours to JAR Commercial Pilot License with Multi Engine and IFR Rating, and the theoretical ATPL exams), all training was done on single engine piston aircraft, with the last part done on a multi-engine piston aircraft (in my case the Diamond DA42 Twin Star) .. JAA rules say that to get a typerating on a multi-pilot aircraft, an MCC course needs to be done ..i did my MCC course on the 737-200 simulator and that was my first jet experience .. the course is a week of groundschool covering mostly CRM, but also briefly the systems and operating procedures .. than it's 5 4-hour sessions in the sim .. you start with basic flying and progressively engine failures and other malfunctions are introduced .. never ever did we fly in no wind conditions ..then for the typerating it went as i explained before, and again we never flew in no wind conditions .. the weather/wind is not the thing to learn, you do that during initial flying training .. you focus on the systems and failures .. on the typerating, first 2 sessions are basic flying and standard ILS approaches .. than gradually engine failures, non-precision approaches, emergencies and combinations of these things are introduced, where at one stage i had to land the plane with 2 engines out (we still have 2 left :-)), a 3 ton fuel imbalance and heavy crosswind on a VOR-DME approach .. add to that engine fire on #3 and you're in for quiet some workload ..

[Guest william273]

LOL...sounds like fun. more good stuff, thanks man. william