AN24!!! At last!!!

[Guest]

Brian, Note that I made a VERY CLEAR DISTINCTION that the comments that I made were in the light of the fact that this `freeware` is in fact nothing more than a `feature-light` version of payware, due to be released shortly. As you so obviously missed that bit in going for my jugular, and the file has once again been pulled from the library so no-one can now check that it is not made clear in the readme that was visible via the on-screen download (the information is buried deeper in the readme) that this is nothing more than free advertising, I forgive you. Just don't do it again, there's a good chap.Now, that beggers the bigger question as to whether this aircraft even deserves the sobriquet `freeware` when it is really nothing of the sort. I personally think this sort of thing is getting out of hand, when commercial developers can hijack the term `freeware` for their own ends. It creates the kind of loin-stirring you're suffering from Brian, as a genuine noted freeware developer. I stand by my claims and will even increase them by saying that if this is the best they can offer to simmers to whet their appetite, they should stick to AI aircraft where it doesn't matter how they fly, how the cockpits look, just so long as they fly pretty patterns and talk to ATC.And yes, Brian, I do expect my PAYWARE to fly right. That's what I'm paying for. And I don't expect FS98 panels, and corrupted gauges that were actually created by another designer who is sadly not credited. And that is why I refuse to judge this `freeware` by the same yardstick and with the same allowances, that I might use for genuine freeware.Clear?ChasW

[Guest]

Chas, I, too, am growing sick of these new payware groups trying to make people buy their products by releasing totally incomplete, and thoroughly un-tested 'trials.' Only the MAAM-Sim B-25 trial ACTUALLY helped influence me to buy that release (though I was already about to make up my mind to do so.) That I3D group's B-1B, while it included a nicely-done external model, was incomplete, problem-ridden, or just un-tested in many areas (take the 2d panel and VC for instance). Now, take Mr. Samborski, here, of An-24 infamy. He released a few nice models of Russian aircraft, but had anyone really heard of him until a few months ago? Here we have him attempting to woo us into paying him money to 'support his hobby', but all I see is a man playing a broken guitar and singing with a sore throat. Now, back to I3D. How many people had downloaded Jamal Ingram's F-16? Who even knew he released an FSDS F-16? Who's even heard of Jamal Ingram? Well, this man is I3D's modeller. Did he REALLY have a reputation? Well, no... Not what I would call a 'payware reputation.' Who are 'payware devlopers?' To me, these are people like Steve Small and Rob Young who were noted freeware developers whose projects just kept getting more and more complex. So complex, in fact, and the urge to complete them so great, that the hobby was an honest drain on their real lives.I must also ask, 'Where is the new talent going?' Here are SO many new developers with immense talent that are being drawn to the prospect of a quick buck. It's almost like someone gave a seminar on making money through computer flight simulation, and the 'prospect' was presented SO well, that few could resist. What's happening? I see it as the decline of the freeware community. Why are so many out to make a quick buck/pound/franc, when they have no reputation to speak of? Many of these developers still are new to the tools, and may not be able to produce what most could define as PAYWARE.To conclude, I can state one important thing. GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER BEFORE YOU TRY TO MAKE A BUSINESS OUT OF YOUR HOBBY.

[Guest]

Thanks David, for recognising the distinction. Removing the obviously confusing `freeware` from the conversation, let's consider the free An24 in the light of what we know:It is like the B1b, a stripped-out `poor` release, in this case incompetently packaged, incorrectly designed and using long-since past their use-by date panels, gauges, sounds and air files - from as far back as FS98, so you need to have FSUIPC installed to make them work (that's not mentioned anywhere in the documentation, by the way. Kinda strange for a standalone release?) And they expect us to pay them for a complete version? Whatever are they thinking? Reputations are earned, not sold. Steve Small, Rob Young, Bill Rambow and many other developers have earned the right to sell us their products. You can earn a reputation by producing something stunning, or you can earn the reputation by building up to something stunning. And in either case it doesn't matter whether you have to pay or not.But without `stun` you won't get the reputation, unless it's for strange practices not conducive to a long-term commercial future - like some we could mention.So, if this is representative of the best that the AN24 boys can come up with, how will they cope with the technical support needed when the full-blown version is launched? Do they even have a website? Or their own support forum? Not according to the readme's so far. Ominous.As a free download it's still poor, the only difference is that if it were freeware I wouldn't have the heart to complain, I'd just set to work making it better for my own needs. But when it's a foretaste of things to come, by their own admission only after money has changed hands, then I think we all have a right to express an opinion based upon what we have so far. ChasW

[Gavin 99]

Oh dear.So, ChasW, you don't like it then?Would anyone else like to comment?It is beginning to look like this isn't going to be as nice as the old FS2K AN-24RV was.Gavin

[Guest danowat]

Hi Gavin,It ok, but certainly not payware quality though.Dan.

[Guest]

OK Gavin, let's stick to the specifics.The external model is good. But it doesn't have any 2d panel views (or a 3d VC panel), the flight model is way off in feel (if any 21-ton aircraft has that kind of pitch moment response to flap deployment it would be a miracle it ever got off the ground), the turn rate is on a par with a Blackbird at Mach 3 (which, if true, would render the aircraft incapable of a standard rate turn in any configuration, so that can't be right), the FS98 panel has a cartoon-like impression with no light or shading, no perspective impression, no throttle/pedestal window, there are no instructions as to how to start the aircaft, (the start panel is in Cyrillic), there are no startup sounds (the sound file apppears to be from FS2000 or before) and what sounds there are are ridiculously quiet in spot view. Also, despite opening doors (nice animation on the airstair) and windows there is no load utility as was included with the AN24RV, and no effects files at all - so no smoke on startup. From a technical standpoint there is no mention of FSUIPC being required to get some of these FS98 air file variables through to the gauges.Effectively, it's a new G-Max aircraft .mdl tacked on to a stripped-down version of the old RFG AN24-RV and not even the enhanced version with Matthias Lieberchts much better panel. If they released it without panel and sounds to reduce the d/l size it would be a nice looking aircraft for AI.Oh, and we've yet to see a download that isn't corrupted.I think that covers it. ChasW

[Guest danowat]

Hi Chas,Is this RFG AN24-RV avaliable anywhere?.Dan.

[Guest]

http://www.flightsim.krsk.ru/24/index_e.htmActually, you'll need this d/l and the manual if you want to start the new AN24.ChasW

[Gavin 99]

ChasThanks for that. If the flt.cfg is that bad it'd be disappointing for me. Personally I'm not interested in the whole virtual cockpit thing, so that'd be a plus!I wonder if Marcel Felde's (was it Felde?) panel for the 2K AN-24RV would work? That was always one of my favourite free panels.I'd have to disagree with you regarding the start panel being written in Cyrillic. As an aircraft designed in the Ukraine and generally used in Russia, having everything written in Cyrillic adds to the attraction for me. I've learnt how to read this alphabet and know a little basic and technical Russian, so this isn't an issue. A 'How to start' guide would have been nice, I agree.A corrupt-file free download is, however, a major point for those of use with dial-up and wait modems.DanCan't remember where I got this AN-24RV from. Some Russian site. Don't worry, there's a English manual version!!!! If I were you, I'd try sticking 'AN-24RV for FS2000' into Google and take it from there. If this suceeds, I recommend Marcel Felde's freeware panel, available still in the AVSIM library. Although this AN-24 is showing it's age a bit now (it was one of the first big releases for 2K2) it still beats some of the freeware comming out now for 2K2, in my opinion. I've never got it to run in 2K2, though Mark Beaumaunt has, and spent a lot of time trying to help me out.Cheers lads!Gavin

[ILYUSHIN_IL62 0]

Well I personaly think Dmitri's AH-24B is great! But somethings you people don't understand with Russian/Ukrainian aircraft is how difficult it is to find information about them, little lone sound recordings or decent pictures. Security for aviation is quite different then say Europe and North America. I think Dmitri did an awesome job of this model. And Im sure the payware version will have a whole bunch more of goodies. :DBest Regards Derek Beal :-wavePROUD RUSSIAN/CANADIAN! :D

[Guest]

Derek, No-one is knocking the external model. But cutting and pasting the old files from earlier FS incarnations so that the end result is nothing like as good as the visual impression would lead you to believe is low. I'm getting tired of having to justify my criticism as if it were criticism of freeware in general, when it is a specific comment about a `preview` of a payware product about to be released. Then I am afraid I use different yardsticks for judgement. Are you really saying you will spend money on the payware version based upon this preview?And if it's that difficult to get the information, what's the point of making a promise of a payware release in the first place? No-one forced them to offer a commercial product. One would have thought that at least part of the decision to release would have been based on the availability of the information needed to do the job properly.FWIW I have at least seventeen pages of technical information, photographs and even sound bytes of the real aircraft, kindly supplied by a fellow simmer, found by surfing the next, so this secrecy argument when talking about the former USSR no longer holds water. Hasn't done for years. Heck, you can fly at Mach 2 in one of their line fighters for $10,000. How hard can it be to get decent photographs and sound recording of an early-sixties transport, on the verge of retirement?Anyway, the package isn't even available on Avsim at the moment, and we've wasted more than enough bandwidth on an unavailable aircraft, free or not. When/if the payware example reaches the stores I hope it's better than this and I hope Samdim and his team sell loads, And I hope all the purchasers are thoroughly happy with their purchase, or else can get the technical support they are entitled to or their money back.ChasW

[Guest]

Chas,Some would certainly spend money on virtually anything that looks interesting. I, for one, have something called self-control, and when impulse begins to influence one of my decisions, reason usually steps in. Given how much this author wants us to buy his product, if we were to decide based on this trial, I say he should get a job that will really support him. At this rate, he will only make money from people like Mr. Beal, here, who are so infatuated by Russian aircraft, for which the add-ons are few and far between and every new thing seems golden.It also seems strange that the problems with the flight model could go unoticed. When you have a normal roll rate of about 0.5 degrees a second, isn't something the matter? I hate to beat a dead horse and drag this thread out longer in this fashion, but no one is yet to satisfactorilly answer my question. Why the HELL would anyone release a 'trial' version of a product that is totally untested, bug-ridden, and appearing to be something that was packaged together carelessly in a great hurry?! This only makes people look elsewhere to spend their FS budgets!

[Guest]

Yes, it is almost as surprising as the developer who penned the words"This is a freeware version. There will be a full version with virtual cockpit, virtual cabin, views towards exterior, new panel and more documentation... The full version will be available approx. in april 2003. In addition to An-24B, it will also contain the whole family: An-24RV, An-26, An-30 and An-32"would even try to justify the exclusion of criticism on the grounds that his offering is `freeware` rather than a trial version of something he'd like to flog to us shortly...I am a long-time fan of Russian and Eastern European aircraft, They have a fascination based on unfamiliarity and the different operational requirements that influenced their designs and build. The Antonov AN24-RV by the Russian Flight Group was a defining moment for me with FS2000 - I flew nothing else for about six months and I find myself doing the same thing with Xomer's AN-2 - constantly returning to it just for the pleasure of flying it in the sim. There must be a market for payware products for aircraft of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc, but not at the cost of quality. Like you, I'm not buying any old tat just because it's an aircraft I like. I do hope the AN24 will be a worthy successor to the RFG AN24-RV, but unless they've got a lot of enhancements hiding up their sleeves AND some form of direct technical support or money back guarantee I can't see me putting the cash down for now.ChasW

[ILYUSHIN_IL62 0]

Well you might have all these documents of Soviet aviation, I was not aware of this. I for one cannot find much information about this, and I have been told by a number of Russian designers the same thing. As for security in Russia, have you ever been there? :-lol sure you can buy fighter jet ride, but that is different then say a civilian flight asking to see the cockpit, you would be thrown out :-hah hell you cannot really take pictures of Aeroflot planes flying in and out of say Sheremetyevo, if a security sees you, you will have to destroy your film. This is how it is my friend. And I do not through my money around, I have only bought a few payware things before, but the An-24 seems fine to me, I am by no means a real pilot, but then again have any of you flown a real An-24? ;-) I will have to ask my friend's dad. Schastlivo! Vsego Nailuchshego(Be Happy, All The Best)Best Regards Derek Beal :-wavePROUD RUSSIAN/CANADIAN! :D

[Gavin 99]

DerekPrivyet! U tybye jest AN24b? U mneye nyet. Gdye on (ona?).nie znayu ruskie jezyik, izveniteEh tam, moze ty po polsku rozumiesz? Gdzie teraz znajduje ten AN-24?flightsim.ru, avsim.ru?Pa ka!Gavin