A designer speaks out.... not everyone is perfect

[Guest]

I'd just like to say to all the freeware designers out there "Thank you for all the time and effort you put into your hobby!" I can't say thank you enough for putting together some great designs, some not so great designs, and then being gracious enough to share with the rest of the world. Without you, I would have spent thousands of dollars in addons to get the number of planes I have in my hanger, and all the great scenery addons that I use. I do have payware addons also, but as was mentioned some of the freeware is getting as good. That is a plus, 1) I get a good product for free (always a good thing), and 2) It keeps the payware folks on their toes and make them offer a product worth the cost. If you download something that's freeware, try it out, if you you don't like it, delete it. If you like it, keep it and enjoy. If you have issues with the product, or praise for the designers, most give email addies to contact them, use that venue not the forums. I know most people would like to use the forum to praise the designers, or warn of a bad product, but a forum is a dangerous tool, it becomes a vicious place where attitudes and egos can run unchecked. I know of few things that hurt worse, than to pour your soul into a project, and then to hear nothing but people bad mouthing the product, the designers, their wives, dog, ect. I try to adhere to one rule while posting in a forum: If I wouldn't look a person in the eyes and say it to their face, then I better not post it in a forum. OK....I'm backing away from the soapbox now. (Fire away, I have Kevlar!!)

[Guest avindel757]

Normally there are enough people that just jump into a thread like this that I will intentionally stay away. I speak from mainly a "user" standpoint who has just begun to take up a paintbrush. (one published work with an isolated audience) Just from a repainting standpoint I am just beginning to appreciate how many more hours it takes to design an aircraft, and they're getting mor complex every day. There are those who may be closer to an aircraft than the designer (or think they are anyway), that will come on the forum and say this plane needs this, that or the other. My feelings are if you feel this way, a public forum is not the place to be spouting off these "flaws". Email the designer/painter, present your credentials, and tell them directly what needs to be moved, recolored, removed, added, shifted, molded, or whatever. I have worked with three different painters and a modeler like this, and I feel since they weren't "put on the defensive" in public, more of a repoire (sp?) can be established and a better model/paint will result. On one or two other occasions a suggestion was rejected. That's totally their prerogative and I have to either accept that or do my own paint. That's where it should end. publically "shamed" works will not get the changes you suggested. Just either accept it or fix it yourself. You have the ultimate authority by either installing the add-on or not. As far as "preview-ware" or freeware teasers to payware products, Free-markets rules will prevail on that one. (Warning: sharp turn ahead) If a product is not advertised well enough, then the product will not sell. When a product goes payware, if it isn't worth the money charged, then "word of mouth" is the best advertising, good or bad. This is a different attitude because payware products are there to make money. This is not a bad thing, unless the product isn't worth the cost. Freeware, on the other hand is freely given to the community, and that in itself should have some respect. IF you don't like it, don't fly it. If you think it can be improved, then tell the author. If he/she/it is willing, then great, you will have a team to make it better. If he/she/it is not willing, then accept the freeware for what it is, and use it (or not.) I hope I did a little more than just re-hash arguements.Andrew IndellicateMarketing/Scheduling directorTrans World Virtual Airlines

[Guest ba747heavy]

@ Bear:Please ignore that ChasW chappie, as he obviously, to borrow a phrase from another time era, 'Has a Bee In His Bonnet.' He seems like the typical forum/newsgroup troll. Nobody else around here even insinuates, thinks, or feels that you are in any way/shape/form doing anything dishonest. I speak wholeheartedly that when I see the 'BearRacing' label, I know that I get the real deal, the truth. If you say something is worth it, I will, 9 times out of 10 go out and download it(only exception is if the plane isn't in my genre of planes I want to fly.) W.r.t. your payware reviews, same thing applies.@ Brian:Amen!!! Well said!! Hear hear!!! As a freeware author(author of FredEdit 1.1, the not well known or written scenery cfg tool =) I agree with those sentaments. It took me many hours to make a simple program, and many hours of testing to make sure that it worked. I can't imagine how it is for a plane author, because that is infinately more complex than my simple cfg editor deal.@ everyone else:I am not sure what this whole debate is about. Seems real simple:1) A freeware author releases something, you have *no right* to critisize in a negative manner. None, at all. That was something released as a gift to you, the member of the FS community. You may tell the author your findings, making sure that you do so in a respectable tone.2) Payware authors are *indebted* to help you out, to listen to your flames. The laws say so(IIRC.) You gave them $$$, and they are required to help you out. Now, that doesn't give you the right to call there work #$%@#$ @#$#@$%@#$, and whatnot. But, it does give you more leeway with the tone of your posts, requests, and remarks.What am I missing?

[Guest]

Enough is enough. I've had it...People, where is thou respect for those who are devoting their time to the FS community? Either freeware or payware. Doesn't matter.Constructive criticism is ok you say. Define constructive criticism and it's not when people say that "the work is rubbish". Constructive criticism is when you say: "Look, the model is good, but I've found this and this and that: can you please investigate it and if it's a flaw correct it?". That's how you give "your" constructive criticism!!!Common users have way too high expectations from the developers. I know, it's our own fault! We, developers should have never put so much detail in our work. We should have restrain our work to the FS 5.1 standards. No or little animation, no fancy textures, 6 point fuselage, etc. This way we would have never got the BS we're getting now. Is this what you want people?I say we respect the developers no matter what they do or how they distribute the work. Payware, freeware, donationware... Also, on a final note: I feel ashamed that the MAAM R4-D still hasn't got enough funds. The R4-D package has been downloaded what, 40000 times? Imagine you would give 2 dollars (half your lunchmoney for crying out loud). Would that hurt you? Yes? Think again... Having that said I just wan't to add that I have bought the complete CD version at the Aviodome FS fair for 30 bucks. I'm still pleased with it and would do that again to support any real world aircraft.Time to think this over and start off with a clean sheet.Note to Avsim: Please ban or at least warn the future "trolls" and "flames". Show these people to a corner where they can think over their actions.Like I said, enough is enough. Be happy, be smart and enjoy the goodies.

[Guest ben_hewitt]

>Enough is enough. I've had it... >>People, where is thou respect for those who are devoting >their time to the FS community? Either freeware or payware. >Doesn't matter. >I am not going to respect people devoting their time to PAYWARE products, doing payware is not a hobby it is a job which we pay our money to and have no reason to thank them, they should thank the consumers for spending $$$$$ on their products. I assure you they are getting more than what we are getting in the end. If they charge for their work they should give support, take angry comments and should get critisism if the product has serious flaws. I fully, fully respect freeware providers and all of my respect go to them, they should not have to take any b/s as they are using their FREE time to provide FREEWARE products. I myself have created over 50 high quality repaints for FS and i sometimes feel stressed when i get negative, petty remarks. This is a hobby for them and they share their work with us, we should give CONSTRUCTIVE remarks but not pull their work apart like I have seen over the years. Thankyou to all the freeware providers!In my opinion payware providers deserve no thanks (but praise is good), this is a job for them, not a hobby.

[Guest]

Out of the number of people who claim the flight dynamics are wrong, which of them have actually flown the real aircraft in real life? I'm not talking about being a passenger either.I feel that most that do the bashing have never flown a real aircraft.

[Guest]

I am not going to respect people devoting their time to PAYWARE products, doing payware is not a hobby it is a joband so what?if you got those 40.000 downloads - you are owning the payware people somenthing - as they are those who contribute to keep this site up an online !! and able you to distribute your stuff!!You are better off to learn to respect others - and not only admire yourself! nutpilot

[Guest]

I tend to disagree. Because of "users" high demands freeware designers go payware. It's because people like you want the very tiny bits and pieces modelled and animated. Hear, hear, Mike Stone has released the new MD-11 which he has build on basis of best effort. Not using up much time and still get a good model of the MD-11 out there. And what do people do? Bashing his work because the nose area isn't shaped quite like the real thing. Next time, and I would fully support him on this idea, he could say: "Well boys and girls, you want a top notch model? Okezz, I will devote more time to it, but I want to be compensated." Not directed at you personally, but how does Mike benefit from the users who just use his add-ons and give nothing in return? No repaints, no information, no nothing but bashing of his work. How would you feel? You know, I've built the Fokker G.1 and to collect a little bit of money I've entered some affiliaty program. All that people had to do is click that stupid banner once in a while... One click is two cents. 3000+ have visited the site and NONE of them cared to do that.People who swear by freeware are those who actually would want everything in the world to be free. Free food, free computers, free houses, you name it they wanted. That ain't going to work. Wake up from a dream!Take the Captain Sim 727. Everyone wanted a very good 727, right? You got one. They listened to the community and got you a 727 with all the bells and whistles. Oh, you have to pay for? Hey, you want it, you got it. Don't complain.I think I've made my point clear. :)

[Guest]

For those who pretend a free where nothing has to be paied - world - time are soon over - !nutpilot

[Guest]

Who said I got the 40K? I suggest that you learn how to understand what people are saying. What I said was that Bill, Roy and Jan developed the R4-D in the hope to raise some funds for a replacement engine for the real MAAM R4-D. They did it on basis of donationware. Most of you didn't spend a cent for the real thing.And now for the 30 million dollar question: If there were no developers at all bringing you those payware or freeware add-ons, then where would you be with your 8 or 10 default planes? The main reason these sites like avsim or simflight or flightsim excist is that people do develop something.quote Nutpilot wrote:You are better off to learn to respect others - and not only admire yourself! /quoteThat is exactly what I'm trying to do here! Read first, write replies later.

[Guest ben_hewitt]

>and so what? >if you got those 40.000 downloads - you are owning the >payware people somenthing - as they are those who contribute >to keep this site up an online !! and able you to distribute >your stuff!! >>You are better off to learn to respect others - and not only >admire yourself! Umm sorry but I don't admire myself at all, I only do this for myself not anyone else so there is no need to admire myself, how cheeky and rude that comment is. I distribute my files for free because I want other people to enjoy my work. Oh so money is going to buy respect from me-i don't think so. Only because PAYWARE sites make money does not mean i should thank them. I 100% respect all freeware providers what ever they are, painters, programmers, modellers etc...

[Guest]

Time for me to get off the soapbox now because this ain't going to help anything or anybody... Too bad. I've seen rude people here, people who don't read the entire post, people who actually think the whole world is free and only a hand-full of people who truely respect ALL developers, like I do. End of story. Time for the forum ops to close this thread down I think.

[Guest]

Alexander, a comment...<>Don't you agree that the reason to do freeware is cuz you enjoy the modelling? Do you think Mike Stone is doing it for a different reason than he enjoys it? I sure hope not. I model scenery, and give it away for fun. I designed even before there was an internet, sharing is just even more fun. I don't promise that it will be perfect, and if you tell me to fix something to make you happier, I'll probably just ignore you. (Unless of course you are polite, and its fun for me to fix it!)<>Your post above has the same meaning even if you left this sentence out. Including such a line is a form of 'crossing your arms' body language...closing down your ears at the same time as your mouth. FWIW just thought I'd point it out. Bob Bernstein

[Guest panzerschiffe]

As far as my MD-11 goes (which will be freeware) I consider it more of an educational exercise more than anything. I'd LIKE to create a very accurate rendition of an MD-11, because of my own goals in trying to learn about aircraft design more than anyone else's wishes for the aircraft. Plenty of people seem happy enough with MS's MD-11 and that's fine, it's not my place to go and ruin their happiness by going unto a message board and uselessly flaming as has happened before. But I do write emails asking designers what they think of this and that... Making the aircraft has brought me to learn more about flight simulator than I would ever have even bothered to learn had I never tried to. I think what someone mentioned above is true, that Mike Stone models more for his own satisfaction than anyone else's. While criticism is necessary to any developer (who can seriously believe what they are creating is perfect looking at it with only their own eyes?), some scathing criticism, especially when it's public and particularly venemous, just does far more harm than good to the whole hobby. If someone were to slobber out "it's crap" sprinkled with curious obscenities about how horrible a product is, it makes me wonder more about the seriousness of the person and his motivation than of the quality of the product. But flames like that aren't really too common, thankfully.That much said, anybody who puts their work out for public consumption, free or not, should be prepared to for the practically inevitable scathing critiques. It just goes with the territory, everybody's a critic.

[Guest]

Bob,<>That's exactly what Mike did and he was bashed for it.<>Depends on how you look at it... You've just choosen one of the many ways.<>Yeah, that's how I started too. Just one little thing you've forgot here. Not everyone has this much time on their hands. I mean, if you have to choose every time between modelling something for the FS community or go out with friends and you would choose modelling every time for 6 maybe 7 months, then you release the thing you were working on and it gets bashed right away. Just imagine this. I don't need an answer on this, I want you to imagine it. <<(Unless of course you are polite, and its fun for me to fix it!)>>And this thread was started because of???