Another payware outfit? I'll pass...

[Guest]

I posted this in another thread, on the subject of a certain AN-24 'preview.' This is definitely a rant, so I kindly ask the administrators of this forum to do what they like with this post, I just would like to get the following off my chest.I am growing sick of these new payware groups trying to make people buy their products by releasing totally incomplete, and thoroughly un-tested 'trials.' Only the MAAM-Sim B-25 trial ACTUALLY helped influence me to buy that release (though I was already about to make up my mind to do so.) That I3D group's B-1B, while it included a nicely-done external model, was incomplete, problem-ridden, or just un-tested in many areas (take the 2d panel and VC for instance). Now, take Mr. Samborski, here, of An-24 infamy. He released a few nice models of Russian aircraft, but had anyone really heard of him until a few months ago? Here we have him attempting to woo us into paying him money to 'support his hobby', but all I see is a man playing a broken guitar and singing with a sore throat. Now, back to I3D. How many people had downloaded Jamal Ingram's F-16? Who even knew he released an FSDS F-16? Who's even heard of Jamal Ingram? Well, this man is I3D's modeller. Did he REALLY have a reputation? Well, no... Not what I would call a 'payware reputation.' Who are 'payware devlopers?' To me, these are people like Steve Small and Rob Young who were noted freeware developers whose projects just kept getting more and more complex. So complex, in fact, and the urge to complete them so great, that the hobby was an honest drain on their real lives.I must also ask, 'Where is the new talent going?' Here are SO many new developers with immense talent that are being drawn to the prospect of a quick buck. It's almost like someone gave a seminar on making money through computer flight simulation, and the 'prospect' was presented SO well, that few could resist. What's happening? I see it as the decline of the freeware community. Why are so many out to make a quick buck/pound/franc, when they have no reputation to speak of? Many of these developers still are new to the tools, and may not be able to produce what most could define as PAYWARE.To conclude, I can state one important thing. GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER BEFORE YOU TRY TO MAKE A BUSINESS OUT OF YOUR HOBBY.(End diatribe)

[Guest]

>:-) ChasW

[Guest]

<>I'm very confused by your message here. You assert that new talent is going to payware before their skills warrent it, right? Isn't that what you say here? Then you say this represents a decline of the freeware community. I'd say its the opposite...if what you say is true...if anything it would represent a decline in the payware community.The way to avoid the problems you feel are rampant in the payware community is to stop buying payware.Freeware is alive and well. Always remember to note the number of files added daily to the library. That is your marker as to the health of the freeware world. And take the whole notion of it all lightly, really...this is all for fun. If I stop making freeware someday, it won't be a crisis, whether you like my work or not...cuz this is a fun hobby...and folks are always starting to design. Check the scenery design forum right now...two beginners are starting up first projects....yeehaw! Bob Bernstein

[Guest danowat]

Hi There,Well I do agree that there has been an upturn in the amount of payware springing up lately,But at least you have been given the chance to test it out first.I have to question the sanity of these files sometimes, I mean if these are a reflection of what upcoming releases are going to be like is anyone going to bother?, I certainly don't think so.These groups need to look at people like milton shupe and his freeware.These planes wipe the floor with some payware, maybe they should give the NEW groups something to aim at, If I pay for something then I want something that goes above and beyond freeware.Dan.

[Guest Trevyuk2002]

>'That I3D group's B-1B, while it included a nicely-done >external model, was incomplete, problem-ridden, or just >un-tested in many areas (take the 2d panel and VC for >instance).' Now, take Mr. Samborski, here, of An-24 infamy. >He released a few nice models of Russian aircraft, but had >anyone really heard of him until a few months ago? Here we >have him attempting to woo us into paying him money to >'support his hobby', but all I see is a man playing a broken >guitar and singing with a sore throat. >>Now, back to I3D. How many people had downloaded Jamal >Ingram's F-16? Who even knew he released an FSDS F-16? >Who's even heard of Jamal Ingram? Well, this man is I3D's >modeller. Did he REALLY have a reputation? Well, no... Not >what I would call a 'payware reputation.' >>To conclude, I can state one important thing. GET YOUR ACT >TOGETHER BEFORE YOU TRY TO MAKE A BUSINESS OUT OF YOUR >HOBBY. >>(End diatribe) I may be able to help with a few things. I cant comment on Mr Saborski as i dont know him personally, andi have only just seen his AN-22 that he has released.Seems like you have a few concerns over Jamals past.....At this point could i just point out that the B-1B was and was always going to be a 'freeware' release, it was never advertised as a payware package, so to be judged as a payware release is somewhat unfair i feel.We released the B-1B, then yes, we discovered that some errors had got in on the final compile, so we addressed the issue on our website and got to work on releasing a patch for her as soon as possible. The support forums have been well used by users that have experienced problems with the B-1, and we have addressed the problems as they have arrived. A fix was released to deal with the force-feedback issue we were experiencing.We are commited to provide as much support for the aircraft as is humanly possible at the present. The current climate in the middle east is causing disruption to some of the members of I3D with real life military commitments, but we will strive to answer all problems. All of this is being done for a release that is in fact 'freeware'. Currently as it stands, the websites that have hosted the B-1, we have had in the region of 22,000 downloads(this figure was as of the end of last week).Jamal Ingram has been around for quite awhile.......His FS2000 work 1st appeared on Owen Hewitts site http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/aircraft3-view/ and it was on that site that hosted the two F-16's that were produced. Numbers wise as to how many were pulled off from that site, i dont have the latest figures, but i was led to believe it was around the 13,000 area. On Flightsim.com, it had appprox 2042, plus 576 repaint files downloaded.Jamal was also influential on Dean Reimers F-18 series. As for reputation, i dont think you need a reputation to become a payware developer, after all, all the payware developers out, had to start from somewhere. If you feel that the software is not worth all the long hours of research, constant re-compiles, re-textures and headaches, then that is totally up to you.I understand your concerns for the payware issues, and i can assure you that I3D shares these feelings too and we shall be doing our upmost to ensuring that the end product is to the high standard that the simming community deserves.http://www.mnm-fs.com/trev.jpg

[Guest danowat]

Hi Trev,"At this point could i just point out that the B-1B was and was always going to be a 'freeware' release, it was never advertised as a payware package, so to be judged as a payware release is somewhat unfair i feel."are you sure this was the case?, I remember a quote on the front page of you website stating that you had changed the B1 from payware to freeware so people could "see what your payware will be like".I have and will judge your upcoming payware on the B1 which, acording to a post in your forum " Jamal is struggling with the VC.. and, like any other designers, we as a team dont want to bring you something that isnt of 100% quality, 100% realistic and most important, 100% finished .. ".If I have judged your upcoming payware on this release and this is not the case, then maybe you should make this clear.Dan.

[Guest]

Howdy.First of all I feel that this post shouldn

[Guest danowat]

Hi There,Look, I really did'nt mean to put your group down.I know how hard it is doing what you and others do, the only thing that concerns me is the upturn in payware that does not really deserve to be payware.Is this going to reduce the amount of quality payware, I mean how must milton shupe feel about his current add-ons, they are definatly up to payware quality, but he still offers them as free.I just hope that every designer does not want a splice of the pie, and start producing only pay stuff.Don't get me wrong thought, I have a lot of payware, but to me they have to provide something a bit special, something different and above all of a quality that deserves to be paid for.I think the question these developers need to ask themselves is "WOULD I PAY FOR WHAT I HAVE PRODUCED".Dan.

[Guest]

The B1B has taken just under 2 years to be completed.. as we have already stated the B1B was freeware and lacks many of the qualities our payware range will include. Some designers build aircraft in 2 days and release them, thats not our aim.. or goal.. Setting any project group isnt cheap either, webhosting, domain names.. and all the other vital requirements... Best,http://www.mnm-fs.com/banner_flightsim2.gif" I am the one and Only .. Nobody Id rather Be. "[/b]

[Guest]

I think I must reply...what you are juging here is freeware. No one of you payed a single cent for it and I haven't receive anything but hard critics and even personal attacks from those who's only waiting for quality freeware falling from heaven. Since I have some experience in modelling (about 100000 downloads counted), I know very well this kind of people whose only will is to kick down the other's work. They are also those who make most of the noise. I also noticed that the more you work on a project, the harder it is criticized. Very motivating tactics.So what is wrong in this model ?There were some errors during the uploading procedure (this is the first time it occures to me) and three texture files were corrupted. These files have their doubles in other texture folders, so repairing isn't a problem - just copy. Sorry about that, anyway.The panel and the sounds are old ones. So what ? Nobody said MelJet B777 was good for nothing as it uses the default panel and sounds. There is an upcoming panel for An-24 but it is not ready yet.You find the visual model bad ? It is like the plane. Very close to the real one. It has been checked by at least four real An-24 pilots and all of them were very satisfied with it.For the moment, there is no payware version. Nobody knows if there will be any. So please don't polemic about what doesn't exist in nature. Nobody's going to rob your precious bucks.Dimitri

[LOT737 6]

COME ON????? Look at ariane, their planes are very expensive. I have just one of them, and it's ok, I understand them, they can put any price they want. Everyone is releasing updates etc. Microsoft didn't released any patch, so if you want to criticize, start with MS.BTW: AN24 is GREAT, and I'm going to buy it..... Many people criticize CS, PSS, and others.... and I never understand them, dont buy it and that's it.Jacek

[Guest]

Well thanks for standing up and being counted. However, you might care to re-read the criticisms again. NO-ONE has criticised the visual model. Not me, not anyone. It makes a very pretty screenshot. Sadly, to equip an FS2002 aircraft with a FS98 panel and an FS98/2000 sound file, to fail to include instructions as to how to actually USE the panel is frankly stupid, and to lumber a late-FS2002 aircraft with an FS98 air file that doesn't work properly means that it will stay as a pretty picture on my machine. And you haven't answered my criticism of the gauges needing FSUIPC to work properly, yet this is mentioned nowhere in the documentation.Oh, and it's not just the texture files that are corrupt. So is the airspeed indicator.Now, while you're here, can you confirm that the Payware version will have a full FS2002 compatible panel, sound file, air file, load manager and a full manual? And that a dedicated website or technical support forum will be established to deal with all difficulties? After 100000 downloads I expect you know what is expected. ChasW

[Guest cw1011]

Well, the good news in all of this is that we have a community here at AVSIM that provides very good feedback on new payware products. If you discount the most lavish praise and the most incendiary flame, the input is usually pretty well-balanced.