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martinlest2

One last (??) RFP newbie question..

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I think I have almost got the hang of this a/c now, but I would really appreciate some help on one major problem that is still bugging me (and ruining my flights).I cannot get the a/c to remain below 250KIAS after take-off. I have set FFRATS & EPR, derated as necessary, according to the manual. I have the AT on - though not AP at so early a stage (at what stage do I put it to Man?). Before I know where I am (like 30" after take-off!) the a/c is up near 400KIAS. I try to control this by increasing the angle of climb, but I am at 30 degs nose up before the speed is anywhere near to coming down again - which is clearly hopeless.I've flown several practice flights now and cold & dark to take-off is fine, and so is descent and approach. Just did a nice autoland at CYVR too. So it's just this initial speed control that's the problem. How do I keep this a/c at VR+10? Or even under 250KIAS would be nice?! If anyone can talk me through this, that's be great.Thanks,Martin

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Hi Martin,Perhaps it would help If I detailed my set up for a recent flight in a step by step format that you can duplicate and see if we can determine where things are going wrong for you. I agree that the RFP 742 is a challenge but it is great fun if you enjoy flight planning and preparation and then watching your planning play out. I used the first flight tutorial, which starts on pg 30 of the 747 Classic Flight Handbook, to develope these techniques. The flight was from Chicago O'Hare to Port San Antonio (formerly Kelly AFB) a 742 combi lightly loaded at 519,000 Lbs ZFW. I used the RFP Combi Loader to load the plane and then the RFP Fuel Planner to calculate the fuel requirement. Because the weather was marginal I added extra fuel up to 113,000 Lbs. With the Chicago temperature at 20*, the altimeter at 29.85, and a gross weight of 630,000 Lbs, the RFP Takeoff calculator gave me an EPR of 1.48. V-airspeeds were V1=133, VR=147, V2=158 and flaps up speeds of F10=takeoff, F5=196, F1=217, F0=238. Initial pitch was 14* and trim was 7.0*.I use the Flight Deck Companion's RFP checklists to aid me but do some things in a logical sequence that keeps my very old brain from forgetting something. During my preflight checks I set the FFRATS EPR Mode switch to TOD and select EPR on the A/T Mode switch. Next, I click the DECR switch twice to derate the EPR from 1.50 to 1.48. At this point I depart from the flow of the tutorial and move to the main instrument panel so that I won't forget it later. I go to the four EPR gauges and click on the small knobs on the lower right corner of each gauge. This sets the EPR bugs to 1.48 for each of the engines. As you can tell, I use the analog panel; there is only one button to press on the tape gauge version to set the EPR bugs. Then I set the airpeed bugs at V1, VR, V2, F5, and F1. Then, as suggested in the tutorial, I set the A/T bug to the F0 speed. I don't think the tutorial mentions the Flight Dirctor but I turn it on now (again, so I don't forget later) and click the top of the FLT DIR PITCH thumbwheel (next to the F/D switch). In this case I click the thumbwheel 14 times to move the flight directos's horizontal bar down 14 degrees. Next I set the trim on the throttle quadrant panel. I find the Takeoff Calculator to be too conservative here and set the trim about 1 to 1.5 degrees higher than what is suggested (try about 8.4 for this flight).I listen to ATIS and set the autopilot COURSE and HEADING to match the active runway heading. When I get my initial altitude assignment from Clearance Delevery, I set that in the Autopilot ALT SEL window. Now I taxi out and set the flaps to 10 during the taxi. At the runway I turn on the A/T and the Autopilot. Once cleared for takeoff, I move onto the runway, line up, and push the throttles all the way forward. The engines spool up until the EPR needle aligns with the EPR bug. Someone (this is probably the FDC copilot) calls V speeds and says, "Rotate." I pull back on the yoke and the plane pretty much rotates itself to 14 degrees. I insure that the atitude indicator's horizon aligns with the F/D horizontal bar and trim as needed to get my airspeed somewhere around V2+20 knots. At about 2500' AGL, someone (FDC?) says, "Climb Thrust." I move the EPR Mode switch to CLB and the engines throttle back to the climb EPR setting. Only when I reduce the pitch does my airspeed increase toward 196 and I begin to gather in the flaps.Once the flaps are up then I have a problem keeping the speed below 250 KIAS and I usually click the autothrottle over to "Speed." This may not be IAW real-world procedure but it works for me.I hope that this is helpful to you. I think it is worth learning how to fly this plane; it's great fun.R-

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Hi. Many thanks for the detailed answer.It turned out that part, if not all, of the problem was a corrupt installation! After reinstalling, I flew at least a dozen practice take-offs yesterday and although I am not 100% happy as yet, I think I am almost there.The only real problem that seems to occur 50% of the time is that I cannot stop the a/c from stepping past 250KIAS before 10000'. The unknown quantity for me is the A/T, which is quite different from any other I've encountered.Other than that, I've had two long-haul flights with the 742 now, Anchorage-Vancouver and Vancouver-Denver. All went fine, apart from the last few seconds before touchdown in KDEN: at 50', when autoland was going fine, the a/c suddenly started climbing, as if I had initiated a go-around. Very annoying, and mysterious: I did slightly decrease the speed from c. 164 KIAS to 158 at the last moment. Would that little cause the a/c to climb?I'll probably try again later today, KDEN-KJFK maybe. I was initially very frustrated, after PMDG and the like, but I have really got into this a/c now. The frame rates are much better than PMDG too! I'll read your notes as I fly. Thanks again for the time you've taken to reply,Martin

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"Once the flaps are up then I have a problem keeping the speed below 250 KIAS and I usually click the autothrottle over to "Speed." This may not be IAW real-world procedure but it works for me."Actually, reading more closely what you have written, this mirrors almost exactly what I have been doing. Like you, it's when I start drawing in flaps that the a/c starts going too fast. I also, by trial and error, found that switching to 'speed' is the way to control this, though that's not mentioned in any of the tutorials,M.

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Hmm. I must say Ive never encountered this problem as badly as you have.I always seem able to control the speed with pitch, even after flaps up. Sometimes (hot & heavy) I even have to use MCT instead of CLB thrust to get some V/S.What I do after rotation (AT on EPR) is pull up to about 10 degrees of pitch to let the speed reach V2+10 (wich takes a few seconds) and then adjust pitch to keep that speed. At full load (200k lbs) this gives me about 1800 fpm. At 1500ft AGL set the CLB or MCT according to air conditions, wich leaves me with 1000fpm. At 3000ft AGL pitch down to speed up for flap retraction. With slats up I get about 2200fpm initially. After that I control speed solely with V/S (manually) because speed mode is not very crafty on the RFP.With an empty plane V2+10 can easily give you an off scale climb speed of +6000fpm and even after throttle down I somteimes reach 4000fpm. This is actually more or less true to life. IVe seen MK take off empty at my airport many times and it's just spectacular! At times they flew with mixed engine types and they were not allowed to fly derated, 3000ft at the runway end with 20

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Yes, I agree, this is a great a/c and I really enjoy flying it. I think I have got the hang of the take-off now, just have to engage SPEED mode as I reduce flaps.Went through '####' last night as I couldn't get the plane to land ILS - then after some 5 attempts (AutoSave very valuable) realised I was in GPS instead of NAV mode. Could have kicked myself!Still find take-off a bit touch and go, so to speak, but I can now keep the a/c within proper limits and after a few more flights reckon I'll have it 'licked'. I wasn't expecting the a/c to be so complicated to fly when I bought it the other week, (CD from eBay) and after having become quite comfortable with quite complex a/c like the PSS Concorde, PMDG, Project Tupolev 154B etc., found it quite frustrating to be back as if an FS9 beginner. But, as I say, all goes well now and I'd recommend this plane to anyone (especially as it's apparently now freeware on AVSIM).Next step, to try to merge the panel with some of my remaining Posky B742s & 743s...Martin

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... always surprised at how prudish AVSIM is! They've changed my "H-E-L-L" to ####. (Just in case anyone thought I'd written obscenities!! :-)

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>... realised I was in GPS instead of NAV mode. Do you have a checklist program? This exact problem (on a different aircraft) is what convinced me that I needed Flight Deck Companion. It is invaluable on planes like RFP and TinMouse with few automated systems; my copilot always reminds me to check the Nav Mode switch before I start my approach.R-

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The POSKY merges work great. I never even flew RFP with the original model. The 747-200F was the first to be merged and I must say it's amazing, especially with v4. Yesterday I merged the 747-300 aswell and again, they are good palls :-)Things you dont have with the merge are the cargo loader (I can't get it to work right)and ofcaurse the VC.If u want my version contact me on martijn.denecker@gmail.com.I also have panel variants with TCAS, TCAS/Carousel INS, TCAS and ISG GNSX FMC (wich is great for long haul). Wing views or not.Now I'm hoping for some more 747-300 repaints! All the good ones are missing as of now (Dragonair and Travel City Direct in mind). Working on the TAAG now...

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The old S-Combo is installed with the RFP, but it doesn't have quite the functionality of Flight Commander, to say the least (now replaced by FDC Live Cockpit). And it is limited to use in the RFP 742. I may have a look at FDC Live Cockpit, but I have so many add-ons installed already that I sometimes wonder if my FS9 setup is about as loaded up as it can cope with. Not to mention my poor bank account... The GPS/NAV thing was a silly slip up on my part: I do have some printed checklists and I added this to it, so it shouldn't happen again.I've decided to fly for a while - I spend so much time messing around with things (the result of which I do have a really nice setup, with many things customisable at the click of a mouse (I've wriiten quite a few batch files to do this). Maybe in a while I will draw a breath and start on the Posky merge - not that I have all that many Posky 742/743s now. If I get into deifficulties I'll contact you - thanks for the offer. I did read though that the merge is limited to the freighters. Not sure if this is still true..Martin

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Pretty much perfect flight Detroit to JFK. Only thing is that on every ILS landing I have made so far (Autoland works fine, though the flare is a bit late - come down a bit hard sometimes), the 747 touches down at the very right hand edge of the runway rather than on the centre line. Anyone else had this problem (should 'anyone else' be reading this thread!)?M.

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its too bad the RFP forum is so slow, but does this touchdown on the edge of the runway happen everywhere? Maybe the airport doesnt have the correct heading listed in the afcad file as you are putting into the mcp

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Hi. No, it's happened everywhere so far, which I can't account for. If it had been just one airport I'd have said the AFCAD needed adjusting, but since it's happened at the four or five places I've landed something else must be going on. I should next try the same landings but with a different a/c, but nfortunately my FS PC has died a death for the fourth time in a month. I think Dell will have to replace it. They must have spent more in engineers' call outs and replacement parts than it's actually worth. Whatever, all further testing has ground to a halt until I get this resolved!Martin.

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Heres what I do when linging up with the runway 1. Set flaps to 10 , Set trim and throttles to idle2. Set Speed on the Autothrottle to 10+ knots that of V2 speed3. Set FRATS to TOD and use Derate 14.Autothrottle on and mode set to EPR . While the brakes on, advance throttles to 40 % N1 once stable and checked advance throttles smoothly to full.5. At Vr speed rotate smoothly and at V2+10 FRATS to CLB and MODE to speed6.Gear up and clean aircraft

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Have since had to reinstall (FS9) - new PC. Last couple of flights I have made with this a/c went OK on landing, pretty much runway centre.I do much as you, apart from your no. 3. I'll try this later when I make another flight.Thanks

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