Odd thing with the self-installing C-172 from Real Air

[Guest Tony_A]

Just a suggestion, I never download anything to "My Documents". I've setup two folders "Downloads" nad "Unzipped" - everything I download today (31 March 2003)I will put into a "310303Mon" folder inside my "Downloads" folder and anything that has to be unzipped into a "whatever" folder in a "310303Monday" folder inside my "Unzipped" folder and install from there. I empty one or other or both of these folders, except for the last 3 months or so, from time to time. How long you keep them depends on your disk space. This makes it easy to go back to find that "thingo" you downloaded last week or two months ago and might help with your current problem. Tony

[Guest Kurt]

I didn't bother running the installer, the new files (air,cfg,wav, and bmps) were unpacked when I extracted the zip and I just did a manual install.Kurt M

[Guest]

Yes, that was how I did it in the end, having had the `53` error message, then a `Default aircraft not found Cessna 172` error on bootup after replacing the files with a default version from a clean install of FS2002 I have on another drive.Alternative install method: Unzip the Realair172 zip file to a temporary directory as directed.Open FS2002 folder - aircraft - highlight the C172 and `copy` to the same aircraft folder, creating a `copy of C172` folder. Now cut and paste all the files from the Real Air temp directory, overwriting when prompted. Finally, delete the installer .exe from the `Copy of C172` folder and rename the folder Real Air C172SP.Done.ChasW

[spotlope 0]

Chas,Okay, I can see now that a few more words of warning should have been put into the installer readme for those who had tweaked their default 172 installation. The only -- and I repeat ONLY -- thing that should have given this installer a problem is if you'd renamed the default 172's folder. Let me set the record straight on what this installer does:1. Looks for your default 172 folder and copies it to a new directory called "RealAir C172SP".2. Copies the files and folders for the RealAir version from the place you've unzipped them, overwriting any file that we're replacing such as the textures, sounds and aircraft.cfg files.3. Deletes it's own installer (install_172.exe) from the new RealAir 172SP folder. After all, you don't need this once you're done and it wouldn't work to run it from this new location anyway.I'd like to point out that nowhere in this process is anything written to the registry. Your system is not trashed up in any way by any of the above activities. Your default 172 is not touched. And if you were using other sounds for the 172, you can easily restore them by just copying the sound folder from your default 172 again.In fact, if you didn't want to use the installer and were technically adept and paying attention, you would see that all the files are resident in the zip to do a manual install without using the exe at all. If in the process of installing, you overwrote your default 172 with a rolled-back version, that's hardly the fault of the installer. I think some of you may be making this too difficult on yourselves.thanks,

[rcbarend 37]

Hi Bill,This is not the right thread to get into the pro's and con's of auto-installers again :-) (allthough I have MY preference :-) ).Being a (freeware) developer myself, I just hope that every publisher of an FS addon package would follow your approach: make it possible for the user (depending on his capabilities/FS installation) to decide whether to install it manually or use the auto-installer.The only thing you could have done better IMO (and PLEASE read this as constructive comment) is if you had written the few lines of auto-installer explanation above in a Readme file. Which would have avoided the problem and the discussion :-).Best regards, RobPS: Great plane by the way !!

[spotlope 0]

Hi Bob,Yes, I quite agree. Fortunately, the installer doesn't seem to have presented a problem to very many, but it never hurts to have a little explanation. You can bet I'll be keeping it in mind the next time I release any bit of software! All this discussion has given me a couple of ideas for improvements to the installer, so it should be pretty tight next time.thanks,

[Guest]

Bill, I unzipped the RealAir172 to C:...My DocumentsTemp Files as I do with all my downloads. I see a new folder created `Realair172sp`. I open that folder and double click on the .exe contained inside, after reading the readme. I get the `53` error message, then a ` default aircraft not found, reinstall flight simulator` message when attempting to open FS2002.Note: I have NEVER renamed the C172 folder, and the only difference from default was the replacement flight dynamics by Ron Freimuth (creating a different named air file - which is where the problem is I suspect) and an alternative sound file folder which I use for backing up the default aircraft sounds after replacing them with Aaron Swindles excellent replacements. These too, were lost in trying to install the Real Air modifications and that too, is simply not acceptable (although I do have those saved on CD). I am no greenhorn with FS installation, but I do not think it appropriate for an installer to only recognise a default, standard installation before proceeding. At the very least there should be manual instructions as an alternative. And if that isn't the correct procedure, then you need to re-write the installer, or abandon it altogether. I simply do not accept that I am in error. If I click on a self-installer, I shold expect that it will do what is supposed to do, and not harm my computer or its files. I only thank my foresight in having a second installation of FS2002 which enabled me to replace the damaged C172 folder saving me from a complete reinstallation of the product. By the way, the manual installation method I outlined above takes less than two minutes, including deleting the installer. exe from the hard drive. What's so difficult about that? Especially as it doens't harm my installation.ChasW

[spotlope 0]

After reading your message, I can confirm that one of the problems (as you correctly supposed) is that renamed air file. I assume you deleted or moved the default 172 air file from your original 172 installation -- yes? The installer wants to remove the default air file from the new RealAir 172 folder after the installation of the new one, and when it can't find a file it recognizes as the one to delete, it throws the error. One simple fix for this in future versions is just to not remove anything after install. I don't think it would have any adverse effect on the aircraft to have another air file in the folder so long as the correct one is called in the aircraft.cfg file. I'll definitely consider doing it that way in the next one.Unfortunately, I'm not at home right now (gotta work for a living at least part of the day ;-)) but when I get home tonight I'll look through the installer code and see where the problem might be with it not finding your default c172 folder. That's one part that should never give an error, and in our testing it never did. I assume the installer had the correct path to your root FS2002 in the path select box when the installer launched, yes? If so, and if the folder wasn't renamed, then it should have been, as we say, duck soup to find it.Regarding the Aaron Swindle sound files, I'm still a little foggy on what you are saying took place, so bear with me. Are you saying that the installer deleted or caused a problem with the sounds in the default 172 folder, or that the new RealAir 172 didn't have the right sounds? The problem is that Rob made a new sound.cfg file and added some tire/wind sounds, so the default sound.cfg gets overwritten in the new RealAir 172 folder with his files. There should be no reason why you couldn't just replace the whole RealAir sound folder with the one you've been using for your default 172 after the install is over.I'm a long, long way from considering abandoning this installer, as I feel that it's a huge time saver for the vast majority of simmers. There are a few issues to be resolved in order to make it bulletproof, but then that's the hardest part of FS development. Getting anything to run on everyone's computer is almost always an elusive goal. I appreciate the feedback you've already given, and I've provided a method in an earlier post in this thread for just installing the whole thing manually if you'd like to bow out of the conversation now and go flying. If you are intersted in sticking around and seeing this through, I'd be happy to continue tracking the installer problems down as soon as I can get to my FS computer. I can think of a couple of tweaks I could do to make it work more smoothly, and if you're interested I'll send you a new installer along with a list of changes I've made when I get done tweaking it. It shouldn't take more than an hour or so tonight.thanks,

[barryward12345 0]

The only thing wrong with the installer programming is that it assumes that you have a completely standard C172 installation. If you don't have a standard installation then you will need to install by hand.For example, I have a non-standard C172 installation in that the name of the main folder is different (therefore the installer can't find my C172) and the sounds inside my sound folder are different to the standard C172 and my panel is not standard.If people have altered their standard C172 in any way, they need to be aware of this.Barry

[Guest]

Bill,Thanks for replying and I hope this helps others from making a hash of their FS install - it will then save the copious e-mails that will inevitably turn up on the Real Air Sim doorstep.>I assume you deleted or moved the default 172 air file from your original 172 installation -- yes? The installer wants to remove the default air file from the new RealAir 172 folder after the installation of the new one, and when it can't find a file it recognizes as the one to delete, it throws the error. One simple fix for this in future versions is just to not remove anything after install.I don't think it would have any adverse effect on the aircraft to have another air file in the folder so long as the correct one is called in the aircraft.cfg file. I'll definitely consider doing it that way in the next one.Regarding the Aaron Swindle sound files, I'm still a little foggy on what you are saying took place, so bear with me. Are you saying that the installer deleted or caused a problem with the sounds in the default 172 folder, or that the new RealAir 172 didn't have the right sounds? I'm a long, long way from considering abandoning this installer, as I feel that it's a huge time saver for the vast majority of simmers.There are a few issues to be resolved in order to make it bulletproof, but then that's the hardest part of FS development. Getting anything to run on everyone's computer is almost always an elusive goal.

[Guest]

Forgive me if I expressed a prickly reaction to previous posts. The thing is, we released this project as a courtesy to the simming public. While this may well also produce interest in our payware products, the bottom line is that we are giving away something which took us some energy to produce. But we had no intention of making it difficult for people to download, and we don't believe we have.When assessing how we would release it, we felt that keeping the download small was desirable. So let's please understand that we issued an installer not to be awkward but to be helpful. To that end Bill produced what we considered a very convenient installer, which didn't require users to juggle default files around, and contrary to that implied by some here, in fact the vast majority of FS users DO have a bog standard default C172 on their systems. Even if that was not the case we felt we emphatically covered this by stating very clearly in the installer script that this package was reliant upon the default C172 being on your system, and that if it wasn't we advised reinstalling the default before proceeding. I don't see how we could have been more clear!For those users who have custom aircraft setups we reasonably assumed that they would have the knowledge to extract the required files manually.Since there are now approaching 5000 downloads of this package, I feel it is reasonable to assume that install problems are very rare, and there isn't the avalanche of people you apparently are expecting, but perhaps that may change. That is not to say I do not care about those with difficulties, but in fact of the very small number of install problems we have been notified of, the majority of them have come from people who actually ignored the instructions and attempted to manually install when letting the installer do its job would have solved their problem. If that is not so in your case I apologise.You always have the option of manually installing the files needed, and though there isn't an actual file by file list, the readme does explain pretty accurately what we've added and what we've used from the default.Regards,Rob YoungRealAir Simulations

[Guest]

Rob, I think the why's and wherefores of auto-installers should wait for another day, but I can tell you that after reinstalling the default files the first time I got an error (`53`), that was precisely when I got the initialisation fault that invited me to reinstall the whole simulator program. That cannot be considered `convenient` by any stretch of the imagination and is an issue I hope Bill can get to the bottom of.ChasW

[spotlope 0]

I sure would appreciate it if everyone could just hold their tongues until I can get home, get to the installer code, and see what I can do about the problems. The way things are going right now this thread will be locked before I can even get through my nightly commute! I thought we were just going to examine the installer and see if there is room for improvement (there most probably is) in this thread, not lay into one another until someone comes up bleeding. It's a simulator, people! And we're talking about something offered for free. I just want to make sure that the maximum number of people can enjoy Rob's incredible flight dynamics and be blinded by my psychotic paint scheme! Go have a beer or a martini or a soda or a nap or something. By tomorrow I promise everything will look better.thanks,

[LAdamson 240]

> Go have a beer or a >martini or a soda or a nap or something. By tomorrow I >promise everything will look better. Exactly what I'm doing Bill! At least the "gin" part. Of course it also makes me an ignorant P....And BTW---- thanks for the installer. I actually appreciate the things. L.Adamson

[spotlope 0]

You're quite welcome, Larry. After all that work (and believe me, there are a number of hours in this project on my side, too) it's great to hear from someone who's enjoying it.thanks,