Tuning Questions For Nickn

[Guest JNS]

NO.. NOT ONE SINGLE BIT on a single drive!Marketing game.. I can explain but do not have timeThat cache ONLY HELPS when a SATAII 32MB cache drive is used in ENTERPRISE STORAGE system... or RAID0. 2 32MB cache drives WILL beat 2 ist Gen Raptors in RAID0 (hardware card) they will NOT BEAT a pair of Vraps in any head to head storage solution unless you go 4 32MB cache drives agains 2 Vraps.. and then its probably about a tie with the 32 drive 'just squeeking past.Gotta love the marketing BSThe Vrap is dropping in price... they come in 150 and 300GB size... and are now about the same as the 1st Gen Raps use to be here in the statesYES~!Thats why a lot of people have trouble .. they do not understand what they are doing and use the marketing data to make a choice in storage instead of understanding how/why storage systems WORK.Motherboard RAID is TRASH for FSX.. and to tell you the truth the only reason it slipped by for FS9 was the average file size in FS9 was tiny compared to FSX ...:)

Boy, you all make it tough for a guy in here. :( Looks like I'm going to be pulling one of my three 500G SATA II Barracudas and replacing it with a 300G Velociraptor for FSX. And I haven't even had the new system fired up yet. Oh, well, I guess it's the best time to do it.Thanks ( I think :( )Jeff

[Guest Nick_N]

Boy, you all make it tough for a guy in here. :( Looks like I'm going to be pulling one of my three 500G SATA II Barracudas and replacing it with a 300G Velociraptor for FSX. And I haven't even had the new system fired up yet. Oh, well, I guess it's the best time to do it.Thanks ( I think :( )Jeff

its the best value/performance FSX storage solution! its the right decision!Use the other drive for backup storage or you could put the OS on it and use the rest of its slack space for backups making sure the OS and installed software end up on the outer tracks by the defrag softwareIf you do that, dont split the drive with partitions,.. just install windows and your software to it and then make a folder named XXBACKUPS (use the XX) and it will be placed at the END of the data after the OS (WINDOWS folder) and installed programs by the defrag software in a NAME defragIts a stradegy.. and it works very well

[tfm 169]

Just an FYIIts not the storage system that makes flight load faster... its the combination of all CPU/MEMORY/VC/BUSS/STORAGE that increases flight load time as well as in-game loadsat the same time most cant tell the difference in-game because they put a better hard drive in and assume any stutter they see is the sameStutters are not created equalToo many around here (not you Tim) claim there is no difference between the storage systems and that is the primary reason why.. they judge based on putting a drive in and using a stopwatch on a flight loadthat test is utterly... utterly flawedbut look at it this way Tim.. I know you are running totally overkill, like me LOL but we are not upgrading storage every year or every other year and never, ever have to question: "where did that stutter come from?"We know it is not the storage system which many do suffer from in combination... we have eliminated a major source of stutters so when we see them we know just by looking at the screen... it aint storage, and we will most likley be using the same storage through FS11LOL!Money well spentThat single Vrap is the best perf drive money can buy when you take into consideration its ability compared to SASEven on a motherboard port that drive will cream anything on the market in SATAII

In fact one of the few good decisions I ever made with technology was about 5 years ago when I invested in a decent SCSI array (which I'd still be using if I hadn't set it on fire - literally - during my first attempt at overclocking this summer: this was the "muddle" I mentioned in my first post!). My thinking was that I could migrate the kit to later PCs. And it worked out very well (until my little mistake in the summer). The improvement to the overall responsiveness of my PCs was quite striking, even without RAID0. Over time, of course, one gets used to the extra "boost" and starts to take it for granted. But I wouldn't want to go back. That's why I stepped up to SAS (the bargain-hunting mentioned in my first post) when I bust my SCSIs.Also, as you say, confidence that I've now got the HD side of things optimised means I can simply forget about this bit of the performance equation. But on the other hand, I wouldn't want anyone reading anything I've posted to think that HDs, or any other single component, are a "silver bullet" for FSX. I completely agree with you that to get the best out of FSX all the components need to play nicely together.By the way Nick, Happy Christmas - in case we don't cross posts before then.Tim

[Guest JNS]

its the best value/performance FSX storage solution! its the right decision!Use the other drive for backup storage or you could put the OS on it and use the rest of its slack space for backups making sure the OS and installed software end up on the outer tracks by the defrag softwareIf you do that, dont split the drive with partitions,.. just install windows and your software to it and then make a folder named XXBACKUPS (use the XX) and it will be placed at the END of the data after the OS (WINDOWS folder) and installed programs by the defrag software in a NAME defragIts a stradegy.. and it works very well

Thanks for the instructions, Nick. I'm getting ready to order one of those suckers from New Egg right now.And Merry Christmas to you in case I miss you on here before Christmas.Jeff

[Guest Nick_N]

In fact one of the few good decisions I ever made with technology was about 5 years ago when I invested in a decent SCSI array (which I'd still be using if I hadn't set it on fire - literally - during my first attempt at overclocking this summer: this was the "muddle" I mentioned in my first post!). My thinking was that I could migrate the kit to later PCs. And it worked out very well (until my little mistake in the summer). The improvement to the overall responsiveness of my PCs was quite striking, even without RAID0. Over time, of course, one gets used to the extra "boost" and starts to take it for granted. But I wouldn't want to go back. That's why I stepped up to SAS (the bargain-hunting mentioned in my first post) when I bust my SCSIs.Also, as you say, confidence that I've now got the HD side of things optimised means I can simply forget about this bit of the performance equation. But on the other hand, I wouldn't want anyone reading anything I've posted to think that HDs, or any other single component, are a "silver bullet" for FSX. I completely agree with you that to get the best out of FSX all the components need to play nicely together.By the way Nick, Happy Christmas - in case we don't cross posts before then.Tim

and a Happy Christmas to you and your family as well Tim!I understand not wanting people to think something like storage is a 'silver bullet' which is why is said... its the combination of all CPU/MEMORY/VC/BUSS/STORAGE that increases flight load time as well as in-game loadsThere is no 'silver bullet' however with MSFS there is such a thing as 'silver ammunition'. Its the combination of hardware in use and its setup which deliversUnfortunately Aces decided to try and remarket a year 2000 -old school- triangle rendering engine and not bother to at the very least bring it into the multicore age by taking full advantage of multicore use. Because of that the title brings even very overclocked flagship CPUs to their knees under the right scenery conditions.The storage solution is only one aspect of perf however when we start talking about a title that needs every last free CPU cycle and especially those lost on motherboard RAID and slower SATAI/II hard drives the use of better storage solutions becomes very apparent. Getting the drives on a real SATA/SAS card and completely offloading the motherboard does make a difference even if not running RAID and even if not using Rap, VRap and SAS drives.They are making changes in FS11 but my primary concern around that is they will get multicore fully implemented and fix other issues, but then instead of GIVING that perf to the user they will suck it up for themselves to make features (typical MS mentality.. Visa and FSX is a prime example) and we are right back to the same old .... needing a CPU from 3 years in the future to run a current game titleI hope they get the message this time and make sure that every single feature added has a true "OFF" switch so all users can enjoy clear and well defined scenery with smooth flight and not need a degree in CS to make it work.

[Guest Nick_N]

Thanks for the instructions, Nick. I'm getting ready to order one of those suckers from New Egg right now.And Merry Christmas to you in case I miss you on here before Christmas.Jeff

Merry Christmas to you Jeff!You know.. the best storage solution to include backups is a 3 drive system. One for the OS and installed programs, one for FSX and addons and one for storage and backup. If the backup disk is large enough you can even keep images of the OS and FSX drive as quick restore backups which is what I do. I have 4 drives + 1 external SATAII backup unit Keeping in mind that being 'Windows' the OS is volatile and may need to be wiped and reinstalled at some point its best to keep backups on another drive away from the OS for safetyWhat I do is get everything installed, updated, tweaked and run it for a number of weeks. Once I confirm all is running perfectly I make a full image backup of the OS drive and another of the FSX drive and store them for emergencies. Over time I may update those image files as I may add/change drivers/software/addons and find everything working perfectly By doing so if the system crashes or anything goes wrong I can restore in about an hour and then run the defrag passes, and, all my regular backup data is always safe.There are many different ways to skin a cat but the best strategy is to keep the OS, FSX and backups on their own drivesRemember when installing you need to make sure you get all the Windows SPs/updates for your version of Windows... and when installing addons to FSX, if the addon is 'database' in nature like FEX, REX, and GEX you do not need to install those into FSX. Those can be installed to the OS drive keeping the FSX drive as clean as possible becasue they only send texture selections to FSX on user input. UTX MUST be installed into FSX.'Massive' photo scenery addons can also go on another drive and referenced by the scenery library. In the case where one may have 100's of gigs of photo scenery addons another Raptor in the system dedicated to scenery only is not a bad idea... just for future referenceanyway... happy holidays to you and your family!

[Guest JNS]

Merry Christmas to you Jeff!You know.. the best storage solution to include backups is a 3 drive system. One for the OS and installed programs, one for FSX and addons and one for storage and backup. If the backup disk is large enough you can even keep images of the OS and FSX drive as quick restore backups which is what I do. I have 4 drives + 1 external SATAII backup unit Keeping in mind that being 'Windows' the OS is volatile and may need to be wiped and reinstalled at some point its best to keep backups on another drive away from the OS for safetyWhat I do is get everything installed, updated, tweaked and run it for a number of weeks. Once I confirm all is running perfectly I make a full image backup of the OS drive and another of the FSX drive and store them for emergencies. Over time I may update those image files as I may add/change drivers/software/addons and find everything working perfectly By doing so if the system crashes or anything goes wrong I can restore in about an hour and then run the defrag passes, and, all my regular backup data is always safe.There are many different ways to skin a cat but the best strategy is to keep the OS, FSX and backups on their own drivesRemember when installing you need to make sure you get all the Windows SPs/updates for your version of Windows... and when installing addons to FSX, if the addon is 'database' in nature like FEX, REX, and GEX you do not need to install those into FSX. Those can be installed to the OS drive keeping the FSX drive as clean as possible becasue they only send texture selections to FSX on user input. UTX MUST be installed into FSX.'Massive' photo scenery addons can also go on another drive and referenced by the scenery library. In the case where one may have 100's of gigs of photo scenery addons another Raptor in the system dedicated to scenery only is not a bad idea... just for future referenceanyway... happy holidays to you and your family!

Yes, I agree. I'm familiar with the routine as I have a commercial recording studio and have a disk image of my main OS/digital audio system stored in a couple of places. This is on a Mac system, though. In fact, I've already got 3 500G drives (one will be replaced by the newly-ordered Velociraptor) in the new FSX system and planned to use them exactly as you mentioned. Of course a couple of days ago I started thinking about the disk image thing and realized that my 500G "backup" drive probably wouldn't hold the image of my OS (at least not with any space left at all) unless I partitioned the OS drive which is apparently not recommended. So I may use a 1T SATA HD for my images. At the studio I have my OS/digital audio program drive partitioned so I don't need a whole lot of space for the image. BTW, what software do you recommend for making a disk image in Vista or is it included in the OS?Also, are you saying I shouldn't use the onboard SATA network for these drives? Hopefully, it will be OK. I'm using a P6T mobo w/6G 1600 RAM.And you are definitely correct about almost needing a CS degree to make the program work. I just always think of the poor guy/girl that buys a program like this for themself or a gift and doesn't even have a clue how to make it run halfway decently, doesn't know about forums like this, and doesn't have or want to take the time to screw around with all of the tweaks needed, not to mention the expense. I think Microsoft is doing a great disservice in this regard. But, then again, I'm just a paying customer so what do I know? :)Thanks, Jeff

[Guest Nick_N]

Yes, I agree. I'm familiar with the routine as I have a commercial recording studio and have a disk image of my main OS/digital audio system stored in a couple of places. This is on a Mac system, though. In fact, I've already got 3 500G drives (one will be replaced by the newly-ordered Velociraptor) in the new FSX system and planned to use them exactly as you mentioned. Of course a couple of days ago I started thinking about the disk image thing and realized that my 500G "backup" drive probably wouldn't hold the image of my OS (at least not with any space left at all) unless I partitioned the OS drive which is apparently not recommended. So I may use a 1T SATA HD for my images. At the studio I have my OS/digital audio program drive partitioned so I don't need a whole lot of space for the image. BTW, what software do you recommend for making a disk image in Vista or is it included in the OS?Also, are you saying I shouldn't use the onboard SATA network for these drives? Hopefully, it will be OK. I'm using a P6T mobo w/6G 1600 RAM.And you are definitely correct about almost needing a CS degree to make the program work. I just always think of the poor guy/girl that buys a program like this for themself or a gift and doesn't even have a clue how to make it run halfway decently, doesn't know about forums like this, and doesn't have or want to take the time to screw around with all of the tweaks needed, not to mention the expense. I think Microsoft is doing a great disservice in this regard. But, then again, I'm just a paying customer so what do I know? :)Thanks, Jeff

Jeff you can add a card later if its something you wish to explore. You are buying the better drive for FSX so you are fine for now.If you are into A/V prodution thats where a SATAII PCIe 8x RAID card can really shine. A RAID array off of a card strictly for AV production is the only way to go in my opinion. Real time rendering and development work off the array goes sooooo much smoother and on i7 video encoding and other production work of that nature is just drop dead fast as long as hyperthread is enabled. FSX does not need hyperthread enabled and hyperthread enabled in the BIOS can increase temps somewhatAs for partitioning the OS drive.. That can be done as long as the OS is ALWAYS on the 1st partition (2nd partition/data behind the first in 3rd party disk tool) which is designed in size to hold the OS and all installed programs and still have 50% or greater freespace, and, the 2nd parition is never used for ANY read/write performance application but just storage. You can use 3rd party disk software to make such changes and tweeks to the freespace as time goes on however I do not know their full ability and limitations in Vista since Vista tends to lock partition elements. Someone else hear may have better advice for you on software for such jobs. I bet Tim would be an excellent source for that info.I use Acronis Disk Director

[Guest simjunkie]

I have to chime in because I can reinforce how good the Velociraptors are. I have 2 of them, 300Gb each. They are simply beautiful pieces of HD tech. Not only are they noticibly faster than the 150Gb Gen1 raptors I used to have, They use a lot less power. I saw the wattage go down by 20 or so watts on my UPS from what my Gen1 raptors were using. And they run about 7 deg C cooler too. They're awesome. Now if they could only come in a 500Gb or even 1Tb? :( -jk

[Guest JNS]

Jeff you can add a card later if its something you wish to explore. You are buying the better drive for FSX so you are fine for now.If you are into A/V prodution thats where a SATAII PCIe 8x RAID card can really shine. A RAID array off of a card strictly for AV production is the only way to go in my opinion. Real time rendering and development work off the array goes sooooo much smoother and on i7 video encoding and other production work of that nature is just drop dead fast as long as hyperthread is enabled. FSX does not need hyperthread enabled and hyperthread enabled in the BIOS can increase temps somewhatAs for partitioning the OS drive.. That can be done as long as the OS is ALWAYS on the 1st partition (2nd partition/data behind the first in 3rd party disk tool) which is designed in size to hold the OS and all installed programs and still have 50% or greater freespace, and, the 2nd parition is never used for ANY read/write performance application but just storage. You can use 3rd party disk software to make such changes and tweeks to the freespace as time goes on however I do not know their full ability and limitations in Vista since Vista tends to lock partition elements. Someone else hear may have better advice for you on software for such jobs. I bet Tim would be an excellent source for that info.I use Acronis Disk Director

Nick, ever used Partition Magic to shrink a partition size? My OS is installed on a single 500G partition and I want to shrink it for purposes of making a more maneageable-sized partition for a disk image.Jeff

[Guest Nick_N]

Nick, ever used Partition Magic to shrink a partition size? My OS is installed on a single 500G partition and I want to shrink it for purposes of making a more maneageable-sized partition for a disk image.Jeff

I have not used PM in quite some time. I have used Acronis Disk Director for several years now. PM was good and it worked when I did use it. I do not know its status with VistaBy the way... little tip, format the FSX drive to 64K clusters using a 3rd party disk software like PM before installing FSX or addons. The increased cluster size will reduce fragmentation by quite a bit and having more data placed per cluster actually helps per a bitYou will lose a bit of space to a 64K cluster format however the gain in the files remaining unfragmented and the nudge of perf is worth itYou can only do that with a non OS drive.. any OS drive or a drive with any Windows page file on it must be formatted to the Windows default of 4K

[Guest JNS]

I have not used PM in quite some time. I have used Acronis Disk Director for several years now. PM was good and it worked when I did use it. I do not know its status with Vista

I'm shocked, Nick! You're supposed to know everything about everything computer-related. :)I'm researching Vista support for Partition Magic and am not certain yet. It also appears that Vista has a "Shrink Volume" option in its own disk management section. I'm trying to find out if that works well. If so, that might be my answer right there. Of course, the easiest would probably be just to get a 1T ext. drive and put the 500G OS image and the 300G FSX image on there and forget about it. And I'm also looking into Vista support with Acronis.Jeff

[Guest Nick_N]

I'm shocked, Nick! You're supposed to know everything about everything computer-related. :)I'm researching Vista support for Partition Magic and am not certain yet. It also appears that Vista has a "Shrink Volume" option in its own disk management section. I'm trying to find out if that works well. If so, that might be my answer right there. Of course, the easiest would probably be just to get a 1T ext. drive and put the 500G OS image and the 300G FSX image on there and forget about it. And I'm also looking into Vista support with Acronis.Jeff

You know Jeff.. one of the reasons for my decision in not using Vista was its demand on changes to locking the partition and not allowing good 3rd party software to do very basic functions without the possibility of damage to the install.. or having to jump through hoops in issues... and even using the Vista method can come with problemsSo you could try the Vista internal disk magagement system but I cant vouch how safe it is for that operationhttp://www.bleepingcomputer.com/tutorials/...133.html#shrinkhttp://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vis...quacy-problems/The Acronis version I had came bundled with disk image software that works with smaller/larger/smaller partition image moves. I dont know how it may work in Vista.I'm a retired aerospace hardware engineer not software.. who spent the last 15 years in the field running a research and development division behind a desk. I don't know everything about every software title out there and its affect on the OS's. There is always a learning curve involved even for someone like me :(

[Guest JimBrown]

Jeff, Nick,I'm a bit curious as to why you are doing (or advocating) full disk images (sector by sector?)I have been using Acronis True Image in offline mode (boot from CD) to make data images of my OS drives to an external disk. The image size matches the data size, not the disk or partition size. If compression is turned on (slows things down a bit) the images are even smaller.I also use a freeware program called "SyncBack" to backup all my drives/partitions (including OS and FSX) to the same external disk every night (BIOS turns my computer on at 5:00 am. SyncBack is scheduled to run at 5:05 am. I get up at 5:30 am.) SyncBack scans the source and destination and copies new/changed files to a folder of my choice on the destination (some OS files can't be copied, hence the image backups as well. The SyncBack backups provide quick restore of individual files/folders.) I also have it set to delete from the destination anything that has been deleted from the source. A full sync, if you will. Yes, I know this only gives me a one day backup, so if I find out I messed something up two days later, I'm SOL. Fortunately, that has not bit me yet. I look at the external drive as a disaster recovery backup, should the internal drives fail catastrophically. If I'm messing with stuff, I usually make a copy somewhere else first (the external disk has plenty of room for that. Just have to remember to clean up when I'm satisfied that all is well.)Regards,...jim

[Guest Nick_N]

Jeff, Nick,I'm a bit curious as to why you are doing (or advocating) full disk images (sector by sector?)I have been using Acronis True Image in offline mode (boot from CD) to make data images of my OS drives to an external disk. The image size matches the data size, not the disk or partition size. If compression is turned on (slows things down a bit) the images are even smaller.I also use a freeware program called "SyncBack" to backup all my drives/partitions (including OS and FSX) to the same external disk every night (BIOS turns my computer on at 5:00 am. SyncBack is scheduled to run at 5:05 am. I get up at 5:30 am.) SyncBack scans the source and destination and copies new/changed files to a folder of my choice on the destination (some OS files can't be copied, hence the image backups as well. The SyncBack backups provide quick restore of individual files/folders.) I also have it set to delete from the destination anything that has been deleted from the source. A full sync, if you will. Yes, I know this only gives me a one day backup, so if I find out I messed something up two days later, I'm SOL. Fortunately, that has not bit me yet. I look at the external drive as a disaster recovery backup, should the internal drives fail catastrophically. If I'm messing with stuff, I usually make a copy somewhere else first (the external disk has plenty of room for that. Just have to remember to clean up when I'm satisfied that all is well.)Regards,...jim

Yes Jim, True Image is the tool that came with my bundle for Acronis... I just was not sure of its use with Vista because I never tried it with the OSThanks for chiming in on the subject.. If I read what you posted correctly its use with the VISTA OS partition is safe? :(