Are These The Correct Charts?

[Guest cliffie1931]

A tutorial notes that we should program the FMC for our destination STAR as described below:"The proper order for programming a STAR is to select the STAR, the approach, the runway and lastly the transition"Taking KSFO as an example am I correct that the relevant information will be available from "MyAirplane.com" as follows?The STAR, the Approach and the Transition will be in the chart entitled "STAR BIG SUR TWO"The runway will be in the chart entitled "ILS RWY 28R (CDA)"Cliff

[Orlaam 306]

Yes. The IAP (instrument app procedure/ILS plate) will have your IAF (initial approach fix/transition), but they usually won't be found on the STAR, so you'll have a point in the STAR you'll need to break off and head to your IAF located on the IAP. I've probably see a STAR with a common IAF, but generally you won't see that.Well, surprisingly, after looking at those plates, the IAF is located on the STAR, so you'd fly the waypoints in the STAR to MENLO, then pick up the IAP plate to CEPIN, at or above 3200 feet to turn 283 and pick up the LOC and then GS at or above 1800.

[scott967 62]

You probably have to experiment some with your particular FMS. Different ones seem to like different order to punch in data. In many cases, the FMS will generate a route "disconnect" or DISCO, but that's pretty much a standard operating procedure to correct. There's differences in philosophy of STARs between different authorities. The FAA treats the STAR as a routing from the enroute structure to the approach. The basic route starts at a common point used in the STAR name. The STAR transition links the entry point of the STAR to the various enroute routes likely to have traffic inbound. Most STAR routes end around but not necessarily at, an airport. In most cases the text says something like "expect vectors".To complete an FMS route, you need to enter the approach, which always is tied to a specific runway. IRL in most cases you would get ATC vectors that would either send you direct to some point on the approach diagram route, or intercept a radionav signal, mainly the runway localizer. US approaches typically also have transitions shown, and often one of the initial approach fix, IAF, will also be part of the STAR route. So it is possible to link them all together in the FMS.Some of the newest US STARs have two different sets of transitions shown -- the standard ones which start at enroute points, but also "runway transitions" which feed you directly into an approach final approach fix (FAF). Most FMSs aren't set up to deal with these "runway transitions". For lvlD, as an example, you have to enter a separate STAR for each runway. In your tutorial example, the Big Sur Two STAR only has a single entry point shown, the BSR VOR, so there are no STAR transitions.As Chris advised, the approach chart for ILS28R (assuming the tutorial tells you to expect runway 28R) has approach transitions shown as IAF, and since MENLO is also on your STAR route (from the other chart) you can go ahead and select that (but understand that if you use the FS ATC, it will probably not let you fly that route as you have entered into your FMS, but instead vector you around). scott s..

[Orlaam 306]

You probably have to experiment some with your particular FMS. Different ones seem to like different order to punch in data. In many cases, the FMS will generate a route "disconnect" or DISCO, but that's pretty much a standard operating procedure to correct. To complete an FMS route, you need to enter the approach, which always is tied to a specific runway. IRL in most cases you would get ATC vectors that would either send you direct to some point on the approach diagram route, or intercept a radionav signal, mainly the runway localizer. US approaches typically also have transitions shown, and often one of the initial approach fix, IAF, will also be part of the STAR route. So it is possible to link them all together in the FMS.As Chris advised, the approach chart for ILS28R (assuming the tutorial tells you to expect runway 28R) has approach transitions shown as IAF, and since MENLO is also on your STAR route (from the other chart) you can go ahead and select that (but understand that if you use the FS ATC, it will probably not let you fly that route as you have entered into your FMS, but instead vector you around). scott s..

Yeah, the procedure of FMC entry can differ, but for the most part I find you simply open the DEP/APP page and select your runway and transition there. I usually already have the STAR programmed via what I obtain from FlightAware.com. You should be able to select the STAR then runway, which will then show a list of transitions. I have had some STARs and transitions not list because of how the data was coded from Navigraph, so you might have to manually enter the waypoints in the LEGS page. I usually enter the STAR manually before take-off myself. Just personal preference on my part.As to the ATC issue, sometimes you can select an approach in FS once you're given your vectors and clearance to a specific runway. Once ATC comes on and says "callsign you are XX miles from the airport, turn right/left heading XXX, expect vectors to runway XX" you can select the option in the ATC window that says to Select a Different Approach. You can also try a different runway, but unless you have an open parallel, you won't get what you want. Anyhow, when you pick the option to get a different approach, you can select ILS, VOR, NDB and even GPS apps. Some ILS apps will have the transition you need, such as MENLO, but many will not. You must experiment. The other alternative, and a perfectly acceptable solution within the confines of the sim is to go with the GPS app. That will give you a fix to head to, whereas the ILS will often only say vectors. The tough part is the database in the sim is older, so new charts won't always match the sim in fixes and approaches. It works at smaller airports better, but larger busy airports must change their plates more, since I often find those fields are different. In those cases I just go with what I think is the best match. As long as it's close, ATC will leave you alone. The biggest problem I have found with this method is the time to descend via ATC is not reasonable. If you're flying a slower GA, you can usually go with these apps and follow the plate pretty good. In faster turboprops and jets, the ATC won't allow you to descend fast enough to make the restrictions. My last flight into KSFO, I was at maybe 8000 feet and wasn't told to descend to make the IAF until I was close to LOC intercept. I ended up to high and had to enter a hold to lose altitude. FS almost always seems to put me too high if I use the approaches built in, and only works on certain approaches.

[Guest cliffie1931]

Yeah, the procedure of FMC entry can differ, but for the most part I find you simply open the DEP/APP page and select your runway and transition there. I usually already have the STAR programmed via what I obtain from FlightAware.com. You should be able to select the STAR then runway, which will then show a list of transitions. I have had some STARs and transitions not list because of how the data was coded from Navigraph, so you might have to manually enter the waypoints in the LEGS page. I usually enter the STAR manually before take-off myself. Just personal preference on my part.As to the ATC issue, sometimes you can select an approach in FS once you're given your vectors and clearance to a specific runway. Once ATC comes on and says "callsign you are XX miles from the airport, turn right/left heading XXX, expect vectors to runway XX" you can select the option in the ATC window that says to Select a Different Approach. You can also try a different runway, but unless you have an open parallel, you won't get what you want. Anyhow, when you pick the option to get a different approach, you can select ILS, VOR, NDB and even GPS apps. Some ILS apps will have the transition you need, such as MENLO, but many will not. You must experiment. The other alternative, and a perfectly acceptable solution within the confines of the sim is to go with the GPS app. That will give you a fix to head to, whereas the ILS will often only say vectors. The tough part is the database in the sim is older, so new charts won't always match the sim in fixes and approaches. It works at smaller airports better, but larger busy airports must change their plates more, since I often find those fields are different. In those cases I just go with what I think is the best match. As long as it's close, ATC will leave you alone. The biggest problem I have found with this method is the time to descend via ATC is not reasonable. If you're flying a slower GA, you can usually go with these apps and follow the plate pretty good. In faster turboprops and jets, the ATC won't allow you to descend fast enough to make the restrictions. My last flight into KSFO, I was at maybe 8000 feet and wasn't told to descend to make the IAF until I was close to LOC intercept. I ended up to high and had to enter a hold to lose altitude. FS almost always seems to put me too high if I use the approaches built in, and only works on certain approaches.

You guys have sure given me something to chew on............. I woke this morning at six (I'm in Spain) wondering whether there'd be an answer to my query and what a pleasure to boot my computer and find all this information. My thanks you all. I appreciate your time and experience.Cliff

[Guest jshyluk]

I concur! We get used to getting good responses to exotic questions at AVSIM, as the user base tends to be well-informed and well-spoken. These replies raise that bar! A big thank you to all of those who take the time and effort to make constructive and educational replies to forum posts. Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

[Orlaam 306]

Glad to help! :(