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Md 11 - Fms / Star - Changing Arrival Rwy For Kjfk Locks Fsx

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CaptainsI just stumbled across a weird problem - not sure if this is related to an issue with STARs and lock-ups already discussed in November.I'm currently approaching KJFK and wanted to change the arrival RWY from 4R to 31L based don the current winds.After selecting 31L and pressing *INSERT, FSX freezes instantly.This happens with all other RWYs @ KJFK as well.Re-installed Navigraphs 0813s - with no effect, FSX still freezes upon *INSERTI did this RWY change dozens of times before at other airports and never have seen this happening.Anybody else having this ?ThanksJoerg

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I'll try this at home this afternoon.Does this happen if you select (for example) ILS31L instead of RNW 31L?What is the arrival (STAR) that you were arriving on? How far out were you, were you already on the STAR route?

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Hi DanThanks for your help.Yes exactly, I was trying to select ILS31L.I was about 20 NM south of SEA ISLE (SIE), the first fix on the CAMRN 4 STAR, when the lock up happened.Currently airborne KJFK-LSZH - just tried it for LSZH and it worked flawless. Strange.ThanksJoerg

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I am very familiar with CAMRN... more on that in a second.How did you get to the STARs page? Did you press the LSB next to SIE to go to the LAT REV page and STAR from there or did you to to LAT REV from a fix on the STAR itself such as CAMRN?Okay, a second later, I invite you to try my sidstar collection and in this case especially for KJFK (the collection includes 68 airports in the US). I have spent several days on KJFK alone with the MD11 and I would like a little feedback on how it works for others. I think I have it nailed down pretty realistically such that the connection between STARs and approaches are realistic. In fact, the ILS31L was the most challanging and I call it the East River Tour. Look for file cycle_0813_sidstars.zip in the avsim library. meanwhile let me know how you got to LAT REV and I will try to duplicate.

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Joerg,I remember someone found the cause of it, it seems to happen when the procedure file has ALOT of approaches in there. Has PMDG looked into it, i dont know

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Too many approaches will cause a crash but I don't think KJFK is one of those locations. So far I found KORD and KDFW will do this but it doesn't have to be changing STARs, it will do this on initial selection of STAR. Not even KATL will cause this. The bug is fixed and will be gone in the FS9 MD11 and FSX SP for FSX.

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Dan, thanks for the top notch support as always, much appreciatedThe flightplan was a realworld Delta FP from Flightaware and converted via FsBuild including CAMRN STAR, then imported into the FMS.I pressed the LSK to access LAT REV on the last fix on the STAR, therefore - yes - CAMRN.I know about the red blinking box on page 25 of the tutorial to always insert the STAR from the last enroute waypoint and not the destination waypoint.However I did not reselect the STAR but just selected ILSRWY31L and hit *INSERT.Did this dozens of times with no issue before when a RWY change became necessary but STAR remained unchanged - just 10 minutes ago upon landing in LSZH.I saved the SBGR-KJFK situation and just tried the same again - FSX still freezes - however:When I access LAT REV via SIE and reselect the STAR and the ILSRWY31L - it works. No freeze.Thanks, I will check out your SIDSTAR files tomorrow and report back - it's 2 AM here so I need some rest first :-)Something particular you want me to look into for feedback ? Overall integration between the STAR and the final approach ?Coming in from Europe I usually fly the ENE4 or PLYMM4 if NATS are more to the south.ThanksJoerg

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<<I pressed the LSK to access LAT REV on the last fix on the STAR, therefore - yes - CAMRN.>>Okay, I want to try to reproduce this, but it will be several hours before I get home.Yeah, if you try my sidstar collection either ENE or PLYMM will have enumerations such as ENE4.22L or PLYMM4.13L. I include a readme and each sidstar file has an extensive header that describes everything included in the procedure file. An enumerations such as ENE4.22L connects the star to the ILS22L approach. Just let me know of any unexpected behavior. The VOR/GPS 13L approach connection is included too, but just as in real world these route you via the chart from CRI VOR to a MAP on base leg where you have to fly the descending right turn to 13L visually. I programmed the ground track into the procedure to help, it is visual past the MAP but NAV should get you lined up on a short final. The lead-in lights are missing from the default scenery but I use an add-on scenery for JFK that includes those (offhand I think it is SimFlyers).

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Ok Dan, I loaded your SID/STARs.Did an online leg today from LSZH - KMIA with your HILEY2.8R loaded (JORAY trans), there was no ATC online so I was ableto fly the STAR to the end.Worked out just beautiful - you programmed a turning procedure "FIX OVERFLY LD08R 3500 SPEED 210 TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX CL08R" after JESSS fix that took the bird straight into the LOC and G/S - nice and very smooth.Will stress-test KJFK tomorrow offline and report backThanksJoerg

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Joerg: I tried to reproduce the lockup when changing approaches at JFK, I could make a mess of the ACT F-PLN but never got it to crash.When you were entering LAT REV from CAMRN instead of SIE that does create a problem. Once a STAR is selected, even changing approaches means you still have STAR route that gets inserted. So the route from SIE to CAMRN gets duplicated.The easiest way to change arrival is to LAT REV from the first fix of the STAR (SIE) not the last (CAMRN). Once inbound on the STAR, you can change the approach but there may be some quick finger waving on the keyboard to get the route strung correctly. Usually at this stage ATC is gonna be giving you vectors anyway. But no crashes during all this.I don't know what happened to you.I continued the flight towards ILS13L, the East River Tour. Here is a shot of the view just before turning right to the intercept course for final (using my sidstar collection CAMRN4.13L):

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oh my God that is just soooo niiiiiiiiiiice :(Tell me something did you start the APU using the APU Power switch or via the APU panel?

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DanThanks much for looking into this. As I still had the situation saved, I did some further testing myself and can confirm that the lock-up happens with the Navigraph 0813 cycle KJFK.txt file but not with yours.So there is something in that Navigraph file my rig apparently does not like.Anyhow, as promised I did some more in depth circling around JFK with your SID/STARS on board - it also was a good opportunity to practice go arounds and to use primary and secondary flightplan options in the FMS. All systems worked flawless in the MD11 despite the many go arounds and flightplan changes.I first flew into KEWR - my homebase when I lived in the US, using the final part of FAK.DYLIN4 for 22L, there I noticed that PATRN to TEB and GIMEE are not in the procedure file for ILS 22LI also noticed that the KEWR procedure list contains an "Unpubl" procedure, probably standing for unpublished ?Then flew on to KJFK and did:SIE.CAMRN4.13LSIE.CAMRN4.22LENE4.22LENE4.31LENE4.4RI was very much impressed by all of them - very smooth descent profile and turns despite the steep angles coming out of the STAR into the final approach pattern. No issues or glitches observed at KJFK.Very well done. Your procedures are for sure a keeper for me.Attached some impressions from the testing early this afternoon CET, early morning Eastern time showing 13L East River approach out of CAMRN4Thanks and HAPPY NEW YEAR - it's already 2009 for a few hours here in SwitzerlandJoerg

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<<first flew into KEWR - my homebase when I lived in the US, using the final part of FAK.DYLIN4 for 22L, there I noticed that PATRN to TEB and GIMEE are not in the procedure file for ILS 22LI also noticed that the KEWR procedure list contains an "Unpubl" procedure, probably standing for unpublished ? >>Wow, great feedback. Many thanks.I didn't provide connections to IAPs for DYLIN because PHILBO (RNAV) came out recently and is a "gps overlay" of DYLIN; where I find two similar routes when one is conventional VOR based and the other is RNAV (GPS) based, I will normally only spend time on the newer RNAV route. Note in the header of the file KEWR.txt the following:

//  ARRIVALS//  FAA Filename	Procedure Name/Date//	Enumeration	 Landing		 Vectors or IAP//  00285DYLIN	  DYLIN FOUR ARRIVAL 08101 (FAK GVE PXT) RNAV Equipped use PHILBO//	DYLIN4		  All		 Vectors//  00258FLOSI	  FLOSI ONE ARRIVAL (RNAV) 08213 (ALB BAF BDL GEE HANAA HNK)//	FLOSI1		  All		 Vectors//	FLOSI1.4R	   4R		  ILS4R//	FLOSI1.11	   11		  ILS11//	FLOSI1.22L	  22L		 ILS22L//  00285PHILBO	 PHLBO TWO ARRIVAL (RNAV) 08101 (FAK GVE PXT)//	PHLBO2		  All		 Vectors//	PHLBO2.4R	   4R		  ILS4R//	PHLBO2.11	   11		  ILS11//	PHLBO2.22L	  22L		 ILS22LThe PATRN transition for ILS22L is included in the IAP. When using MD11, you select approach, STAR and star-Transition then *Insert, then you see a second screen that shows IAP transitions. They are selected separately from the STAR and IAP.... lot difference here from the Boeings.Yes, I provide unpublished arrivals where I see a lot of commercial use. In this case many flights file to KEWR via SAX instead of a STAR so I provide an arrival route from SAX, and this is also listed in the header of the file://  UNPUBLISHED//	SAX.4R		  4R		  ILS4R//	SAX.11		  11		  ILS11//	SAX.22L		 22L		 ILS22LAlong the same lines, I provide many unpublished departure routes where SIDs are not normally filed, for example at KEWR://  Unpublished://	BAYYS.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix//	BETTE.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix//	COATE.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix - join J36//	DIXIE.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix//	GAYEL.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix - join J95//	GREKI.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix - join V419 NATS via JUDDS.MARTN.TOPPS//	MERIT.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix - Preferred departure gate for NATS//	NEION.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix - join J223//	WHITE.NOATC	 All	  Route to fix - join J209

Again, thanks much for giving KJFK a good workout for me. I really appreciate it. Happy New Year to you and yours.

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oh my God that is just soooo niiiiiiiiiiice :(Tell me something did you start the APU using the APU Power switch or via the APU panel?
I start the APU from the Electric Panel, not the APU panel. The advantage is when started this way, the transfer of loads from main engines to APU is automatic on shutdown of main engines. If you start APU from APU panel you then have to manually transfer loads... and would always forget. My short memory is the reason I start the APU as part of my prelanding checklist, I'm too busy turning off the active to remember it before I get to gate most of the time.

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DanThanks much, same to you and yours - all the best for 2009.Ok, thanks for the detailed explanation - the "Unpub" for KEWR is a very nice feature not seen before in any other procedures, I have to check this out one of these days.You're welcome - you can actually add LENDY5.31L to the list - I did a short hop from KDFW to KJFK and just landed. There was no ATC online upon my landing so I was able to fly the procedure to the end.If you have not flown this approach you should - almost as spectacular as the East River out of CAMRN to 13L.The descend via STAR was sooth and the procedure is built in a way to avoid conflicts with departing traffic at KJFK - very nice.When reaching ZACHS via FMS Profile mode, LOC and G/S indicators were exactly centered making the ILS capture as smooth as it gets.The only small thing I noticed was in the turn between JFK144 and ZACHS, the 11 first banked to the left as expected but then had to correct path to the right to reach ZACHS as expected.But also the LENDY5 is a keeper for sure - excellent job.ThanksJoerg

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