Crosswind landings in FS2004 and realism

[january 19]

[Alex, Some 2 years ago, I set up multiple monitors -3- by using triplehead2go and zooming all the way out. Matrox's digital version wasn't out back then so there was no build-in bezel managment support. To compensate for the bezels I simply used the individual controls of each of the side montitors to shift their image towards the center monitor just enough to get an expanded view with no discontinuities. I also hooked up a 4th monitor independently to the second VGA output to display the panel, GPS etc.By the way, what kind of Multi monitor set up do you have? networked PCs? And if quality rudder pedals make such a big difference as you say what specific brandts do you recommend of the ones available today in the sim market? lastly, you certainly have a point about the throttle-lever length with regard to subtle power changes.

-----------manos- My setup is pretty basic: a five year old AMD XP2200 with two GeForceFX5200 video cards (AGP & PCI) driving Views LFwd,Fwd,RFwd. The outer view angles are adjusted in Panel Config (to .01

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

I've never experienced any trouble with crosswind landings with either CH or Saitek pedals and I would disagree that lack of peripheral vision makes them harder. In fact, I would disagree that peripheral vision is the primary cue. The runway ahead of me is the cue. On final, the centerline should appear to be running in a straight line before you. If the runway lacks a centerline, than the angles of the edges should appear mirrored. Peripheral vision mostly plays a factor with your cues on speed and height over the runway, which is what makes flaring a little trickier in the sim.

[mnmon 0]

If you are interested, you can go into the air file to table 1101 (primary aerodynamics) and then edit the first entry under yaw which is weathervane stability. I've found that entry crucial in terms of how the plane reacts to crosswinds. The yaw stability parameter in the flight tuning section of the cfg also has an affect, but the air file entry seems to help (or hinder :( ) more. Mike

[january 19]

I've never experienced any trouble with crosswind landings with either CH or Saitek pedals and I would disagree that lack of peripheral vision makes them harder. In fact, I would disagree that peripheral vision is the primary cue. The runway ahead of me is the cue. On final, the centerline should appear to be running in a straight line before you. If the runway lacks a centerline, than the angles of the edges should appear mirrored. Peripheral vision mostly plays a factor with your cues on speed and height over the runway, which is what makes flaring a little trickier in the sim.

-------------Sentirus- both airplanes and bicycles are dynamically unstable vehicles. As a result they require a constant stream of control inputs to make them do what we want. EARLY detection of a need for fresh input is vital- and in Flight Sim that is only available thru' visual clues. (Gauges, while essential, tend to display info AFTER the fact.) Even an autopilot is constantly active while trying to achieve the impossibility of stability!Roll and yaw changes are most detectable at the side edges of our monitors- the change in scenery radiates out from centre to its maximum visibility at side edge of the mon. Geometrically, that's a half screen width in which to detect a yaw/roll change.With triple monitors/views LFwd,Fwd,RFwd, roll & yaw motion is three times as great at the far edge of a secondary mon. Hence it is much more attention grabbing to the pilot- AND SOONER! You can see roll or yaw developing in your peripheral view well before it is noticeable with a single mon.So I'll stick with the thesis that simmers are inherently better pilots when they fly with a triple wide view! And this is why you will lose your real world pilot's license if you suffer from Tunnel Vision.Still sceptical ?? Try riding a bicycle with your only view being through a mailing tube!Alex Reid

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

-------------Sentirus- both airplanes and bicycles are dynamically unstable vehicles. As a result they require a constant stream of control inputs to make them do what we want. EARLY detection of a need for fresh input is vital- and in Flight Sim that is only available thru' visual clues. (Gauges, while essential, tend to display info AFTER the fact.) Even an autopilot is constantly active while trying to achieve the impossibility of stability!Roll and yaw changes are most detectable at the side edges of our monitors- the change in scenery radiates out from centre to its maximum visibility at side edge of the mon. Geometrically, that's a half screen width in which to detect a yaw/roll change.With triple monitors/views LFwd,Fwd,RFwd, roll & yaw motion is three times as great at the far edge of a secondary mon. Hence it is much more attention grabbing to the pilot- AND SOONER! You can see roll or yaw developing in your peripheral view well before it is noticeable with a single mon.So I'll stick with the thesis that simmers are inherently better pilots when they fly with a triple wide view! And this is why you will lose your real world pilot's license if you suffer from Tunnel Vision.Still sceptical ?? Try riding a bicycle with your only view being through a mailing tube!Alex Reid

I was not speaking of gauges, but of the cues most pilots are trained to look for to detect drift while coming down on final. Peripheral vision may play a part, but the primary focus for the pilot when trying to keep straight in a cross wind is the runway in front of him. I'm not discounting the use of peripheral vision, but in the grand scheme of landing on the runway in a cross wind, it's the runway a head of you, not to the side of you that gives you your cues for kicking in less or more rudder.Bicycles also are fairly stable in motion thanks to gyroscopic forces, which is about the only reason they are ridable. The instability typically comes from forces against the bike such as wind or rocks in the road. As for aircraft, the instability greatly depends on the aircraft, most training aircraft and aircraft intended for private use are rather stable and, in clear air, will fly with your hands off the yoke. Most of the instability is from the air currents. I know in a Piper Cherokee in calm winds, on a cold day, once trimmed, you can fly level while not touching the yoke with little to no altitude deviation. Acrobatic and military fighter aircraft are designed to be unstable as it allows them to be more maneuverable, but most aircraft are designed with positive dynamic stability and a forward CG range to reduce work for the pilot to keep it in a specific flight regime.

[january 19]

I was not speaking of gauges, but of the cues most pilots are trained to look for to detect drift while coming down on final. Peripheral vision may play a part, but the primary focus for the pilot when trying to keep straight in a cross wind is the runway in front of him. I'm not discounting the use of peripheral vision, but in the grand scheme of landing on the runway in a cross wind, it's the runway a head of you, not to the side of you that gives you your cues for kicking in less or more rudder.

--------------Hi John- I think we are both singing from the same song sheet. Agreed that the objective is to keep the runway dead ahead.The trick is to see early signals that new inputs may be needed to meet the objective. My point is that the earliest warning of deviation developing, comes from our peripheral vision- the closer to 180

[altstiff 71]

A sim that has some EXCELLENT flight dynamics would be IL-2 FB or IL-2 1946, flat spin and stalls are very well done as well as aerobatics.

[Johan_Dees 84]

I agree than vision has nothing to do about.. it must be something else.. in the airfile.. Since some planes can do it reasonanle do it right, and most dont.I like to see such good airfile..Take a look at this:http://www.simpilotnet.com/index.php?optio...0&Itemid=32Scroll down for the rudder story..Comments?

[Guest manos]

If you are interested, you can go into the air file to table 1101 (primary aerodynamics) and then edit the first entry under yaw which is weathervane stability. I've found that entry crucial in terms of how the plane reacts to crosswinds. The yaw stability parameter in the flight tuning section of the cfg also has an affect, but the air file entry seems to help (or hinder :( ) more.MikeHi Mike,Is there some "rule of thumb" as to how the various values entered in the fields you mentioned above affect the yaw response of an aircraft, or is it simply a matter of trial and error?manos

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

--------------Hi John- I think we are both singing from the same song sheet. Agreed that the objective is to keep the runway dead ahead.The trick is to see early signals that new inputs may be needed to meet the objective. My point is that the earliest warning of deviation developing, comes from our peripheral vision- the closer to 180

[mnmon 0]

"Is there some "rule of thumb" as to how the various values entered in the fields you mentioned above affect the yaw response of an aircraft, or is it simply a matter of trial and error?manos" Mainly trial and error, though the air file editors I use (aired is the simplest) have some basic info on the parameters that were put in after years of experience by Ron Freimuth. Mike

[january 19]

Here is a professional opinion from the net, on the theme of this thread. Thanks to Hal Stoen for his insight.Alex Reid------------------------"LANDING AIRPLANES IN SIMULATORS AND PERIPHERAL VISIONHal Stoen,

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

"So there you have it. The next time you don't 'grease it on', blame it on your lack of 'peripheral vision', certainly not on your lack of skills as an aircraft commander."-------------------------------

I admit it helps in the flare, I was just commenting that in terms of keeping down the centerline in a crosswind, peripheral vision isn't needed. I know with my glasses, I generally hit rougher in real aircraft than I do with my contacts and catch myself glancing at the ASI a lot more than normal, but I can still track that centerline as best as the wind will allow.

[Guest manos]

Take a look at this:http://www.simpilotnet.com/index.php?optio...0&Itemid=32Scroll down for the rudder story..Comments?Comments... Very enlightening - and debunking as well - stories, indeed!manos