What about VATSIM?

[Guest Macs]

Guys, I think the original poster and a few others are totally off the ball when judging Vatsim. Remember,Vatsim is a free service. You arent compelled to use it so it is YOUR responsibility to look for the required tutorials and information. Remember that the aim of this service is be be as real as it gets. When you're put in the hold over BNN(Bovingonton,London) and told that you're number 6 for the approach,most people would find this thrilling and realistic(London being one ot the most congested in the world) but I can assume by some of your earlier comments that you would find this a hinderance. You're damn right that Pilots are expected to have charts,particularly when they are usually available FREE. The pilot shouldnt have any excuses,but In MY EXPERIENCE, controllers have no problems vectoring pilots without them.I fly on Vatsim,I control on vatsim.I really do have so much time for vatsim,and thats my right. You not liking Vatsim,thats your right. But please,when giving your reasons-MAKE SURE THEY ARE ACCURATE!I'm sorry for my attitude,but some of the content above really does get at me :-madWith that said,I really do recommend flying on the vatsim network,get past all the "awkward" parts and you'll find its worth it.In fact,try flying in Ireland.I control EINN_V_APP(Shannon) quite frequently and would be delighted to help some "fresh meat" }( If interested-gimme a shout!RegardsJohn Mc AvinueP.S Another tip would be to put "first flight on vatsim" or something similar in the comments line on your Flightplan,the controller will definatly see this and will then "take it easy" on you;)http://www.bavirtual.co.ukP 2.53 GHZ512 RAMWINXPGFORCE 4 128MB Ti4600http://vatsim.pilotmedia.fi/statusindicato...tor=OD1&a=a.jpg

[Guest vortovor]

IVAO is like a beautiful car....It don't need that much explenation ;)vortovor

[Guest lamont]

I've flown online since the SATCO days and find it very enjoyable. Sure I've run across some not so good controllers and some not so good pilots but as long as they don't run me into a mountain I remain patient.Some time ago I wrote a comment on the VATSIM forum regarding why all controllers weren't voice rated, especially at the approach and tower positions. I don't remember who replied but he very politely reminded me that VATSIM is designed to accommodate everyone, including those with hearing disadvantages.Usually, if I get a text controller at those positions I inform them that I will perform any action requested but confirmation response may be slow or not at all based on how busy I am with the aircraft. Usually they understand.As for the complexity of the various programs needed, it takes me a good 15 to 20 minutes to get everything ready to go (SB Host, FSChat, FS2002, SB, ServerInfo, etc). However, let's face it, in the real world you don't just hop into an aircraft and take off either.

[Guest TheJones]

It is all a matter of how close to reality you want to get.If one's only interested in driving an airplane, then by all means - go for an offline flights.If you like the company of others, then use multiplayer or IVAO, which are actually quite the same.Yet if you want to get as close to reality as possible, you will have to choose VATSIM.Those are 3 different things - IVAO is more about medals, ranks, competitions and other entertaining stuff. VATSIM is about aviation.Being a real ATC and interested in aviation, I naturally chose VATSIM.One thing I must add, about nasty controllers misbehaving towards newbies. This is a totally unacceptable behavior, on neither networks. It is usually done by ATC's which think they know everything while, let's say, this is not exactly true. I experienced this kind of (mis)conduct long ago on IVAO by a German ATC, which was talking total rubbish. If it happens to you - complain!I'll conclude by reminding I am not here for the "who's the best network" fight - I just express my opinion. My experience showed the "beautiful car" is having engine problems lately. sorry had to say that one ;-)Ilan JonasIsrael On VATSIMProject Director

[barryward12345 0]

> Remember that the aim of this service is be be as real as>it gets.For me , this is precisely what the problem is with VATSIM. It is TOO real -- and if it is going to be this real , then better pilot training facilities need to be provided by whoever is in charge of the various VATSIM country areas. (I know that your Virtual BA has a good training system - but not much good for me here in Australia because of the time difference.) I have , in the past, managed to work out how to connect to and use the VATSIM network. But , nowhere can I find any quiet slow training opportunities that are appropriate to the area that I live (Australia). My local VATPAC system assumes that I am a fully trained CPL who knows everything about the various ATC restrictions in everypart of the country ( like the location of different classes of airspace, the air routes between various points on the globe , etc) and have a full set of aeronautical charts for everywhere in the world!! As newbies , we need to be able to connect to the system and fly from somewhere to somewhere while being directed by the various ATC positions (Tower, Approach, Ground, Centre, etc)without having a complete knowledge of the ATC restrictions in the area of the flight.Barry

[russellj 2]

We accross the ditch in New Zealand are newbie-friendly. We are always looking for new people to come on board.You can get more information at www.fiwifly.org.RegardsRussell Jourdain (NZL007/ZK-RHJ)

[Guest NealT]

To give you some perspective (perhaps), the original software has come a very, very long way since the days that Joe, Jason, and Marty wrote the various pieces. You can now connect with the network worldwide at extremely good ping rates (even on a dial-up) at one of 15 (at last count) servers. No longer do we have the 'lag' issue. As a pilot, you are not limited to MSFS (95), but you can fly with a variety of flight products as well as MSFS 95, 98, 2k, and 2k2 (not to mention 2k4 which is to be released later this year I understand). All through the same, basic interface.ProController has been overcome by ASRC on the Controller side. Development and testing work continues on SB3 on the pilot side. All the work has been done at no charge to the users. And it will stay that way.Now, I have belonged to most of the online flying networks at one time or another. Many have pretty websites. Each has it's own 'niche' for lack of a better term. It depends on what you want to do.Is VATSIM moving forward? You bet. Do the developers go through 'heck' to adapt to changes that MSFS, Fly, etc. make with their programs so that the latest ones can be used online? You bet. Do we still have room to improve? You bet.I might ask a question of those who would ask that the software be "turnkey". When was the last time you went to buy a new car and walked into the showroom, looked at a car from a distance, paid for it, and drove it away without having the salesman show you the features? When you purchased your flight simulation program itself, were you able to start it up, hit the switch and fly a B747 IFR in 1/4 mile visibility and a 100 foot ceiling into Aspen Colorado? (I know...there is no way you could do that...I was 'stretching things' just a little. )Learning how to fly requires some patience, skill, and training. Those of us within VATSIM (and I am speaking about each and every VATSIM member) I am quite sure can remember when we were "new" to the system. And trust me, we have ALL had our good AND bad experiences. Just as in the real world, it happens - like it or not. We are dealing with people and machines and neither are perfect. My Advice? - Start slow with a minimum of programs and work up from there. And tell the controller (or pilot) that you are new to the system.(OK, I shall step off my soapbox now. :) )Seriously, for those of you who have a bad experience with a controller or pilot, where you think they have been rude, used foul language, ignored you or 'deliberately messed you over', we have a complaints system. We work rather hard to ferret out the 'problems' and try to correct inappropriate behavior. I have a dedicated corps of Supervisors and Administrators who can help while you are online. VATSIM has a dedicated group of 'investigators' who are able to look into the complaints and take action as appropriate offline to correct inappropriate behavior. All you have to do is to contact us - the sooner after the incident the better - and we will go to work. Many times, we can actually resolve things online.I can assure you that the VATSIM leadership team is aware of your concerns and is working on them. Regards,Neal F. Truitt Sr.VATSIM VP, Supervisors

[Guest crashing_pilot]

nothing about vatsim....and nothing about ivao...they both rock,and if i could pay for a huge phonebill,i would fly there a lot...on both networks they've always been friendly and professional... to me anywayz,and i can assure everyone it helps to put "first time on vatsim" in your fp comment section...even at BUSY kmia they helped me out...btw,i really like flying to kmia....ah well...maybe somewhere in the distant future :-)

[N562Z 4]

Gentlemen:In my initial posts let me just say that my experience on VATSIM has been wonderful, for the most part. My problems have never been with how I was treated, which has always been exceptionally and professionally.I absolutely love flying real-world procedures with the appropriate charts, STARS, communication, etc. My problem is the still antiquated communication. For a service that prides itself on maintaining the 'as real as it gets' credo of MSFS, that we are more than just occasionally subjected to type-written ATC COM with busy approach and tower controllers in busy airspace during busy fly-ins or what-have-you is, at this stage in the technology game, just arcaic. You guys spend hours discussing your 2+ GHz CPU's and $400 video cards, bench test scores and frame rates in the forums, and you expect me to swallow that type-written ATC communication exists to be considerate to those flight simmers with inferior equipment setups? I don't buy it. Not in 2003 with 1 GHz CPU's quickly becomming "slow" machines. Who DOESN'T have Roger Wilco, wether you like it or not? Now as far as the hearing impaired among us are concerned, I can understand and support type-written communication. The solution here would be for those individuals to let the controllers know that situation exists WHEN YOU FILE YOUR FLIGHTPLAN, so that appropriate exceptions, granted well-deserved, can be made by ATC, not by all the other pilots trying to maximize their experience and enjoyment with verbal communication. For that I am all in favor. See You Online,http://www.expedia.com/pubspec/images/airlines/smNW.gifAlex ChristoffN562ZMinneapolis, MN

[chumley 0]

>>I found the abuse and sheer nastiness toward some newer pilots>from controllers especialy in a certain European country was>absolutely to me, unbelievable.Spanish - perchance?That was my experience as a newbie

[Guest MB327]

This thread has touched on a number of issues that pop up wherever technology meets people.

[gosta 0]

Hi Alex,>and you expect me to swallow that type-written ATC communication exists to be considerate to those flight simmers with inferior equipment setups? I don't buy it. Not in 2003 with 1 GHz CPU's quickly becomming "slow" machines. Who DOESN'T have Roger Wilco, wether you like it or not?http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest lamont]

Hi Mike,Congratulations on your appointment. They got the right person for the job. Your reply is spot on.

[Guest]

Mike,Good luck on your mission.May I suggest you borrow from the real world for training procedures for beginners.Announce a different route each day of about 50nm. Make sure there are controllers at each end and in between for a certain time period. Insist that the pilot is in a Cessna or similar GA aircraft. Guide the pilot step by step from Point A to Point B. And then offer him/her a contructive criticism of performance.Cheers,Airdog

[Guest]

well, reading this post, I got teased to try VASTIM again...once before I struggled with usage of ProController and I thought squawkbox would be even worse to use...it seemed so darn complicatedThe whole setup took me only 30minutes from ZERO, and then I was flying! It was my 1st flight, and yes it felt wery n00b, but great, I am doing it again today :):)The controlers were very friendly, as my RogerWilco receptionwas very unclear and had to ask them to repeat things, I alsocould not memorize all the stuff the ATC told me so I had to ask that,I was a bit too high on approach...and I overstressed the craft...I felt so lameeee...but noone yelled at me (thanks) , need more practice, so i'll be back :)