Encouraging News from Microsoft

[Guest azafar]

I think we need to be more optimistic. Even though MS seems to have cut off the current MSFS development, the field will not die and I am hopeful that neither will the franchise. Just imagine what already exists in graphics hardware now and what is coming down the pipe:1. Geometry Shaders and Tessellation - imagine terrain and objects that are computed and positioned procedurally based on real "physical" characteristics (LULC and vector data, city generation rules, traffic rules, other terrain rules (such as a stream cuts a bed through the terrain rather than is a simple polygon overlay on a "flat" terrain), trees grow on the sides of roads and other areas. These "terraforming" rules will generate the scenery in real-time rather than the primitive autogen we have now. In fact these features already exist in commercial visual simulation toolsets (see for example Trian Graphics' Trian3D Builder and 3D Nature's Visual Nature Studio etc.)2. Computer Shaders - imagine that all the "behaviors" of objects in the scenery are all physically based and computed in real-time (for example, the flight model or the way birds migrate based on real migration patterns or the way they fly, or how ground vehicles respond to road conditions based on real-physics, inertia and friction). Even the 3d objects in the terrain could "weather" properly with age, change of seasons - imagine how cool it would be to see the leaves change color dynamically and fall with the seasons and snow fall and accumulate in physically correct ways etc. We could have much better weather simulation with full volumetric clouds (and not the texture based imposters we have now) using real-physics of precipitation, condensation etc. (some of which exists now but could be more robust)3. The "environment" could also be physically based - real air-traffic dynamically updated from the internet with real flight delays, real weather conditions, real "emergencies". Air traffic control could be controlled in a "virtual" space for everyone. Each real flight could be "tracked" in real-time and updated in the simulated world. 4. Stereoscopic displays - including support for better head mounted displays, 3d LCD technology, 3d projectors etc.--Atif.

[bpcw001 22]

While it may be that Microsoft will have some kind of "flying games" in their portfolio, I fear that this will not be my idea of doing computer aviation.Let's face it:Hardcore simmers and real-world pilots like me who expect the software to deliver maximum possible realism and system simulation depth are a minority which does not justify the high development cost involved in making such a simulator.Most people are out for "games" and are not involved enough to read through hundreds of manual pages in order to learn how to fly and how to operate an aircraft's systems properly. They want to hop in a 737, feel like a CA and enjoy the ride into the sunset without much hassle, but with great visuals and graphics.This is where the money is, and Microsoft will go for it.

[kamaz74 81]

I agree, this "Game" word is used far too often for my taste. I spend an hour and half in pre flight checklists and breifings preparring for a routine flight in the Embraer, i dont want some 11 year old kid on "Windows LIVE" pulling up next to me at 37,000ft, in his F/A 18 asking me if i need a military escort to Houston. I think this Windows LIVE idea is frightning.... Ryan may not think so, but in his "expert" observation of Xbox LIVE, isnt that what everyone is fearing will happen? Its like he's telling us, dont worry, its just as bad as you think it is... Kinda sad in my opinion. Have any of you ever been to the Xbox forums for Halo and other games? its like entering Tinker Toys Childrens Forum, its horrible. In my opinion what makes Flight Sim Flight Sim is that its a Sim, not Flight Game. I remember when the Default Multiplayer server was online for FS9, it was junk, there was mass chaos everywhere, people crashing into this and that, into planes, and building. I fly online, and knowing Microsoft, they will attempt to close VATSIM or create some sort of system that blocks all connections to a VATSIM port. Only allowing you to get into LIVE and hook up over the internet. And award system??? what im gonna get medals for flying? im sickened by this move from Microsoft, and yes, it is as bad as this.... look at every other Microsoft product ever released, they capitolize on them in every possible aspect.If things get too open to the public through this LIVE garbage, its off to X-Plane for me

[gman! 1]

I agree, this "Game" word is used far too often for my taste. I spend an hour and half in pre flight checklists and breifings preparring for a routine flight in the Embraer, i dont want some 11 year old kid on "Windows LIVE" pulling up next to me at 37,000ft, in his F/A 18 asking me if i need a military escort to Houston. I think this Windows LIVE idea is frightning.... Ryan may not think so, but in his "expert" observation of Xbox LIVE, isnt that what everyone is fearing will happen? Its like he's telling us, dont worry, its just as bad as you think it is... Kinda sad in my opinion. Have any of you ever been to the Xbox forums for Halo and other games? its like entering Tinker Toys Childrens Forum, its horrible. In my opinion what makes Flight Sim Flight Sim is that its a Sim, not Flight Game. I remember when the Default Multiplayer server was online for FS9, it was junk, there was mass chaos everywhere, people crashing into this and that, into planes, and building. I fly online, and knowing Microsoft, they will attempt to close VATSIM or create some sort of system that blocks all connections to a VATSIM port. Only allowing you to get into LIVE and hook up over the internet. And award system??? what im gonna get medals for flying? im sickened by this move from Microsoft, and yes, it is as bad as this.... look at every other Microsoft product ever released, they capitolize on them in every possible aspect.If things get too open to the public through this LIVE garbage, its off to X-Plane for me

Read please: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1537935Xbox and LIVE are not bad things, and FS on Xbox is not possible.

[SlowFlyer 78]

Read please: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1537935Xbox and LIVE are not bad things, and FS on Xbox is not possible.

Not to disagree, but why is it not possible? I believe MS has the know how, and if they wanted to (to attract a bigger audience) could and would port the next FS over to the Xbox. Technically, it should be possible. Although it would be a watered-down FS, without the airplane's systems modeled to the degree that Level-D 767 has for the FSX PC version, but nothing in the Xbox's specs prevents it from "playing" a simpler (for lack of a better term) FS game.Now, granted I am still a bit sadden and upset that I don't know what MS plans are for their next FS product, and I am trying to keep myself optimistic, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that I am worried that FSX might be the last FS "sim" that tried to be "as real as it gets". But to attract a larger, wider audience, MS might have to build the next FS towards the "get in and go fly around a virtually pleasing landscape for a while, ok, on to the next game" crowd. If this is the case, we might lose ther more "realistic" procedures and system modeling that have been done by 3rd party software makers for FS9 and FSX.As an example, I can't see many casual gamers wanting to take the time to program a realistic FMC or even follow a checklist, item by item, to start up a start a 747 that might take more than a quick "control -E" key stroke. So in the end, why would MS want to use the resources to go thru all the trouble of developing a base product allowing these "realistic" features, when they can just focus on "visuals" that most gamers only care about. I'm not saying they will, I am just thinking what could be.Oh, don't even start on ATC! Heck do you think gamers care more realistic ATC? I bet most won't even know the difference between ground and center...what I have to tune in all these different frequencies? What is "with Echo"?Sorry, ranting here. But niche is for small companies focusing on a smaller audience. MS is going for everyone. I want the option (not that I will always use it) but I want the option for the next FS to be as "real as it can get". :(

[JasonD210 0]

I don't find this news encouraging at all. I was going to post why in this thread, but instead I posted it a new one. You can read it here:http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=244206What I do find encouraging is that all you guys know exactly what you want from a flight simulation platform, and that forms a solid market base.I also find Austin Meyer's X-plane encouraging and suddenly interesting. If I was an FSX 3rd party developer, I most certainly would turn immediately to that and start looking into the possibility of developing things for it, whilst continuing with existing FSX developments.

[n4gix 4,947]

If I was an FSX 3rd party developer, I most certainly would turn immediately to that and start looking into the possibility of developing things for it, whilst continuing with existing FSX developments.

I am a developer and have taken a very close look at it already......and have found it wanting in too many respects at the moment for the type of work I do.Perhaps in a few years it will mature to the point where I'd be interested in it. I remain open to be persuaded...In the meantime, I have more than enough work lined up to keep me busy fulltime until at least mid-year 2011. :)

[kamaz74 81]

Slowflyer, there are those of us that want those simple Flight Sims and those of us that dont, if we are going to be making products for both, we should do that, make two products, one with simple interface, and one that allows addons of third party developers to bring much more system and experience realism to the sim.There is no way on gods green earth i will ever log on to a network system where all Xbox/LIVE players and the serious ones out there like me, have to be grouped together in one large world. I have my hands full dealing with people who have no idea what their doing on VATSIM let alone letting every armchair pilot and person on earth who wants to, log in. Anyone ever been on a Halo server, or a Gears of War server on Xbox Live? theres a multitude of 12 year old twits running around who never know how to play and most of them log in to cause trouble. Microsoft doesnt care about the quality of a sim, neither do they care about their customers, all they care about are market sales and how to appeal to the largest group of people possible NO MATTER WHAT.I will use FSX with Squawkbox and VATSIM until i die before i ever have to deal with an experience in Fligth Sim LIVE like ive had in Xbox Live.In regards to offline play, i could care less, i do however think any fligthsim coded for the Xbox IS a game and is not a simulator. Ive never seen any pilot control a plane with a Xbox controller... Not to mention the idea of addons... at the present time Microsoft can barely make a few default planes let alone coordinating a giant automated addon system where you would navigate to a 3rd party product and add it directly into the Xbox "Game". More than likely theyll take the easy way out and just fill it with non editable/removeable default aircraft...For those of you who do Offline flying, your a bit safer, as your experience depends on you and you alone, those of us who fly online are alittle worried at how firm Microsoft is being in terms of how its going to manage flight sim. Whats kept Flight Sim so popular is the user modification and upgrades available to make your sim so much better and better in the areas you see fit. I would bet you my life everyone on this forum has one addon plane whether it be free or payware. What makes Flight Sim Flight Sim is the enjoyment many get out of making Fligth SIm their own and being able to choose what they add, not have to log into Microsoft's store and buy products from Microsoft. That means all the little guys will be left out.... And its those guys that keep Fligt Sim running, like Small business keeps America Running, Small Development Groups keep Flight Sim as popular as it is today.In closing, i HIGHLY doubt any serious developer/simmer will turn their back on the PC in favor of an Xbox controller interface. Xbox doesnt offer that level of simulation and personalization to be even remotely considered fun by many of my friends and myself. Unless you see Ace Combat 4 as a simulator and on the same level and FS, its not viable. Even this network LIVE trash brought up here is a horrile idea, again, it will benifit Microsoft immensly with little to no concern for the actual pilot or the serious flight simmer. Whether your experienced or not you have a choice to be online or offline, But i dont think a one click away system would make the majority of flight simmers happy, specually the wack jobs out there who would love to screw the system.... Just look at Xbox's one click away system.... its sold many consoles, but the quality of the game is far far worse, especually when compairing FS to Halo.... there is no acceptable online comparisonI have no problem with an Xbox version of the sim, im just worried Microsoft could love the idea so much, it could become the only platform Microsoft develops for... That worries meIf this switch ever manifests itself, it will be the official end to whats everyone known and loved.... :(

[SlowFlyer 78]

Slowflyer, there are those of us that want those simple Flight Sims and those of us that dont, if we are going to be making products for both, we should do that, make two products, one with simple interface, and one that allows addons of third party developers to bring much more system and experience realism to the sim.

Kylan,I totally agree with your sentiments (100%). I also like to just fly around and not do things by the procedures when I don't have a lot of time and I just want to cruise around. My post was not to support FS on the Xbox. On another thread I posted my worries about that happening.My post was to counter an argument that FS on the Xbox was not possible and whould never happen. I was only stating my opinion that it could happen, with my fears that it would be water-down version of what FSX is today.I have no problem with simple FS, but my fear is: Maybe MS will only focus on a simple version of FS, saving a lot of time, energy, and money, thereby we lose the option for a complex sim and we end up with 3rd party addons that are just simple and "light weight". I don't believe MS is going to invest in two separate products. I would like one product that will scale to the "realistic, by the book" simmers but will also allow a simpler sim for the casual Flight simmer.I don't believe the Xbox will provide both. Therefore I want a fsNext for the PC only and which will include all the "fillings" :-)

[gman! 1]

Im just gonna make this short and snappy.LIVE or NO LIVEGoing online will always be free, the same user group will still play, and LIVE will not attract 12 year old players to Flight Sim anymore than it does right now. Why? First of all system requirements are high and I doubt any little kid will be able to run it. Second of all, most 12 year olds are NOT interested in flying a flight sim because they will find it boring, only the rare breed of people (everyone on this forum) will be interested in playing a flight sim because they understand what flying is all about. I garuntee you a lot of 12 year old will look at FS as boring, as they do not know how to fly. Also, NOT ALL 12 YEAR OLDS ARE ANNYOING, some on FSX Gamespy network (Shared Skies) are genuinely interested in playing flight sim, know the basics about flying, and they will NOT ask if they can escort you to your destination.Again, LIVE will not make little kids buy flight simulator as long as its still on PC and if you read the link to my post above, the hardware limitations of consoles are to great to create a flight sim for, and dumming down the PC version onto Xbox if it was possible (which it is not) would take AGESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. Nobody would buy a flight sim for xbox anyway, because enthusiants would know it would be crappy, and your casual gamer, whether kid, teen, or adult, would find it boring as H*LL to play FS, again because they do not know what flying is about. One more thing is Microsoft knows people will not spend 300 dollars on an Xbox to play a very dumbed down of FS, and they would lose so many customers/user base, IT WOULDN'T EVEN BE FUNNY. (Most of the userbase don't even have Xbox and despise consoles)BTW, this is coming from a 15 year old, and no I do not fly F/A18s all day asking ppl for escorts. Most teens that you find playing FS are genuinely interested in aviation, thank you.So PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEEEEEAASSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE stop all this talk about Xbox and LIVE and misinforming the community and filling the forums with useless information, PLEASE! Posts about the death of FS are also very agitating.LIVE is nothing but a very small label on the box packaging and an online service system, so I do not know WHY you guys are STILL thinking LIVE is going to bring tons of immature kids, especially when Flight simulator is on PC.FS is not dead.* Microsoft is creating a new FS team* The new job opening posted at Microsoft on 1/30/09 (This was AFTER the ACES team was cut, just so you know) for a terrain/world designer is directed toward someone at the old ACES team.*AND... Read this http://www.futuregpu.org/2009/02/end-of-er...re-updates.htmlThe next flight simulator is most likley NOT going to be arcade style, because the ACES team and Microsoft know that NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY will by an arcade style FS that is dumbed down significantly. If they do this they know they are only going to get 10 sales, they are not stupid.Like Phil Taylor said in that blog post (if you read it :(), stop worrying and start up FSX, it still has LOTS of life in it guys. Everything will be fine.

[Guest Jimbofly]

Too much attention is being paid to Microsoft these days - you know there are other software developers out there.Now is the PERFECT opportunity for another company to take over the helm and offer a flight simulator far more advanced than MS can.

[mgh 89]

Im just gonna make this short and snappy.LIVE or NO LIVEGoing online will always be free, the same user group will still play, and LIVE will not attract 12 year old players to Flight Sim anymore than it does right now. Why? First of all system requirements are high and I doubt any little kid will be able to run it. Second of all, most 12 year olds are NOT interested in flying a flight sim because they will find it boring, only the rare breed of people (everyone on this forum) will be interested in playing a flight sim because they understand what flying is all about. I garuntee you a lot of 12 year old will look at FS as boring, as they do not know how to fly. Also, NOT ALL 12 YEAR OLDS ARE ANNYOING, some on FSX Gamespy network (Shared Skies) are genuinely interested in playing flight sim, know the basics about flying, and they will NOT ask if they can escort you to your destination.Again, LIVE will not make little kids buy flight simulator as long as its still on PC and if you read the link to my post above, the hardware limitations of consoles are to great to create a flight sim for, and dumming down the PC version onto Xbox if it was possible (which it is not) would take AGESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. Nobody would buy a flight sim for xbox anyway, because enthusiants would know it would be crappy, and your casual gamer, whether kid, teen, or adult, would find it boring as H*LL to play FS, again because they do not know what flying is about. One more thing is Microsoft knows people will not spend 300 dollars on an Xbox to play a very dumbed down of FS, and they would lose so many customers/user base, IT WOULDN'T EVEN BE FUNNY. (Most of the userbase don't even have Xbox and despise consoles)BTW, this is coming from a 15 year old, and no I do not fly F/A18s all day asking ppl for escorts. Most teens that you find playing FS are genuinely interested in aviation, thank you.So PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEEEEEAASSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE stop all this talk about Xbox and LIVE and misinforming the community and filling the forums with useless information, PLEASE! Posts about the death of FS are also very agitating.LIVE is nothing but a very small label on the box packaging and an online service system, so I do not know WHY you guys are STILL thinking LIVE is going to bring tons of immature kids, especially when Flight simulator is on PC.FS is not dead.* Microsoft is creating a new FS team* The new job opening posted at Microsoft on 1/30/09 (This was AFTER the ACES team was cut, just so you know) for a terrain/world designer is directed toward someone at the old ACES team.*AND... Read this http://www.futuregpu.org/2009/02/end-of-er...re-updates.htmlThe next flight simulator is most likley NOT going to be arcade style, because the ACES team and Microsoft know that NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY will by an arcade style FS that is dumbed down significantly. If they do this they know they are only going to get 10 sales, they are not stupid.Like Phil Taylor said in that blog post (if you read it :( ), stop worrying and start up FSX, it still has LOTS of life in it guys. Everything will be fine.

I'll be even shorter and snappierYour post is uninformed and pointless speculation. How do you know what people will buy, and what Microsoft knows etc etc? What the ACES team knows is now irrelevant - it's been disbanded.

[gman! 1]

I'll be even shorter and snappierYour post is uninformed and pointless speculation. How do you know what people will buy, and what Microsoft knows etc etc? What the ACES team knows is now irrelevant - it's been disbanded.

Tell me one person you know that will by FS on the xbox out of the hundreds and thousands of people that play FSX on the PC?? Does anyone know someone who has an xbox and will be willing to play FS on it, with no shooting or anything, just flying? You see my point? I have a 360 and I know for sure that I would never buy FS for the Xbox. Even though I love to play on it, its limitations for a flight simulator are far to great.I think most people can speculate with just some basic info on the opinions of the community, the number of sales of FSX for the pc, and the attention span of you casual 360 gamer, that Microsoft knows FS on the Xbox is NOT a smart move.This is why its better just to be quiet :( , my post was to show FS is not possible on the Xbox and LIVE is not always a bad thing. I was gonna post a link in my last post showing the limitations of Xbox and FS but I totally forgot, and that would have justified my statements a lot better. Here is the link I was going to put in http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1537935

[mgh 89]

Tell me one person you know that will by FS on the xbox out of the hundreds and thousands of people that play FSX on the PC?? Does anyone know someone who has an xbox and will be willing to play FS on it, with no shooting or anything, just flying? You see my point? I have a 360 and I know for sure that I would never buy FS for the Xbox. Even though I love to play on it, its limitations for a flight simulator are far to great.I think most people can speculate with just some basic info on the opinions of the community, the number of sales of FSX for the pc, and the attention span of you casual 360 gamer, that Microsoft knows FS on the Xbox is NOT a smart move.This is why its better just to be quiet :( , my post was to show FS is not possible on the Xbox and LIVE is not always a bad thing. I was gonna post a link in my last post showing the limitations of Xbox and FS but I totally forgot, and that would have justified my statements a lot better. Here is the link I was going to put in http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1537935

Repeating your uninformed and pointless speculation doesn't make it better, especially when you continue to claim you know what Microsoft knows when you obviously don't.Other posters in this thread disagree with your claim that FS cannot run on an XBox. Remember, everyone has now accepted that there will be no FSXI(next) as a development of FSX. Whatever FS emerges may well be written for and run on XBox. If FS is only available on an XBox then people will buy it. I do not understand your claim that FS cannot run on an Xbox because it only has DL DVD drives and that this would require files to be constantly decompressed as FS runs.

and AGAIN there is NO way to decompress the files from the DVD to the Hard Drive even if it is just for a second. Not even the fastest NASA computer will be able to decompress the files from an FSX DVD fast enough with the read and storage limitation of DVDs TO a Hard Drive to load up one area for a split second then delete that temporary decompressed file to load a different area,

Files are decompressed and copied to the hard drive only once when FS is first installed. FSX requires 15Gb of free disc space to install. Xbox can have a 120Gb hard drive so there is more than enough space. Would you care to reconsider your argument?

[MatthewS 761]

Post by NickW (a MS MVP)http://msmvps.com/blogs/thenakedmvp/archiv...-i-ll-bite.aspx

I ended up writing an email to Steve Ballmer on the whole thing