Future Of MSFS

[Guest ChanRak]

This does not make any sense. First Microsoft fires the Aces Team and then one week later rehires them back and classifies it MS Game Studios. I dare say to mention some previous comments that were made pertaining to such Game Studios on some other threads.Hmm let me see here. MS has re(hired) most of the Ex Aces team and most of those not re(hired) found other positions or other game studios.Lets see most + most = other + otherInteresting, So where did you get your source of info at????I'd like to see it.ChanRak

[mgh 89]

Yea, if I can come up with the start up capital I would hire this group myself, and trust me the benefits of having them as the team for this new company myself, I can make the millions instead.

What steps are yiou taking? Have you prepared a business plan?

[Guest ChanRak]

What steps are yiou taking? Have you prepared a business plan?

Hi MghWell I don't know if you saw a message by n4gix saying the Aces team > most got hired or most not hired etc gets kinda confusing you know I am not sure of whats really going on now.So the real question now is are they officially back or offically not back??? Seems this information came in between the discussion debate here.As to your question hard to do without knowing what the official gospel from MS says. I went to the MS Game Studios myself > Link http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=micr...rc=IE-SearchBoxand I do not see anything there at all latest news wise, but lo and behold look what they have and are contemplating on doing. Also I went to page two and read this article from the PC magazine > Link http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2339520,00.aspso many ??????'s all around huh.Here is the clincher message given>However, a Microsoft spokeswoman said that while the studio has been closed, the software company remains committed to the Flight Simulator franchise, without explaining how future products can be launched without a dedicated software development team backing them. "We can confirm the closing of ACES Studios, which was responsible for the Flight Simulator franchise," Microsoft spokeswoman Kelda Rericha told Appscout. "Following our annual strategy review process, IEB [Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business unit] is making adjustments within our business to align our people against our highest priorities. The closure of ACES Studios was one of those specific changes." Rericha refused to disclose any further details regarding the future of the company. She did, however, suggest that the Flight Simulator series is likely to stick around in some form or another. "We are committed to the Flight Simulator franchise, which has proven to be a successful PC-based game for the last 27 years," Rericha added. "You should expect us to continue to invest in enabling great Live experiences on Windows, including flying games, but we have nothing specific to announce at this time." read the rest I chuckle at the thought of all this insanity coming out from MS> so they must have something up inside their sleeves and are not telling it yet officially.I am just going to play the wait and see game and observe the direction of which way all this is going to be heading at, either the demise or rejuvenation of the sim game itself. This office game being played out by Microsoft does not sit well with me and I want no part of its stupidity.In the meantime I would think it be best myself to prepare to keep what I have for now, and work my way to some other game (sim outfit) for example like X-Plane. The way Microsoft is going now I don't trust them.Then again we don't have too many options out there choice wise???ChanRak

[Guest ChanRak]

MGhCheck this link out. This sort of tells you their objective and read the paragraphs carefully especially the 3rd and 4th paragraph.Link > http://members.microsoft.com/careers/caree...ical/games.mspxPut two and two together. They are aiming for Xbox and live experience on line gaming!!!!!!! In other words we are going to have to be paying something to do flight simming because they will not be selling such to retail for one time purchase DVD's. So why did the Aces team get let go, because they want new fresh blood to work on a new agenda that they have in mind. That link says it all.I previously said that they are looking at a much bigger picture and that market is huge so they want to figure out a way to capture it somehow and reap in the potential millions.I am in Thailand, and believe me when I go to Internet cafes from time to time all I see is young kids playing War games or some ninja or break neck dancing or racing or basketball even dancing competitions etc but never see one yet in the last 5 years here flying a plane or doing any flight simming. go figure. All these cafes are full of them spending many hours playing these idiotic games. I myself have to wait before I can use the computer just for a few minutes to check my e-mails when away from my rented house.This is the market Microsoft is targeting I think regarding to the gaming industry. The potential to make all this money is very huge.MS said that flight simmin has been going on for the last 27 years. Well how long do you think this is going to last????Its no secret, that if it was doing good profits they would leave it alone and build up on that to make more money. So it stands to reason they are losing money now in the simming industry. As you can already see they had outside contractors also working with the Aces Team.Like they said regarding their annual review, I am sure they compared and checked to see what is going on profit wise. Well they took all the gaming itself and divi it up and see only a very small tiny percentage catered to flight simming compared to a huge portion of the pie that has the potential to make multi millions left and right.If you were a business executive what would you choose to do. I probably would do the same thing as the MS executives (who are behind this) are doing now trying to get that market share.Like I said before Money talks the BS walks. It's a business decision and it has nothing to do with the flight sim community as a whole, just pure dollars and cents decision.This is what they are looking at > 100 million vs 1 million . Flight sim makes only 1 million whereas the other games can reap in 100 million.OK I am an executive. I look at the above and its instant without a doubt. I choose the 100 million. Done. A pure business decision and I am a flight simmer myself.One last thing here is a link that doesn't surprise me > http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/...e/15-09/ff_haloEspecially right at the bottom of the article. This is from microsofts user research.HmmmmChanRak.

[Chock 17,769]

I don't think the 1 million versus 100 million scenario you imagine stands up to close scrutiny, although that is not to say some MS suit has not also come to the same conclusion, they don't have a monopoly on intelligent analysis.It's true that some titles on consoles can sell in those kind of numbers, but the reason FS could sell a million was that it is more than what you get in the box. FS is a base package that enthusiasts add to. That's why it could sell a million, because what you are buying is the base platform upon which you add, and that's not the case when you buy a FPS shooter or some other big selling topic, in the case of those big sellers, you get the whole shooting match in the initial purchase. With FS, its true value to most people is in what third parties can make it.The bottom line in Dollars does not translate in the same way for FS compared to most other PC titles; FS9 is over six years old and people are still buying stuff for it. Name me one FPS game or other top selling console game that is still generating that kind of revenue six years after its initial release.Al

[gman! 1]

Here we go again....http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1533170http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1543955I recommend that you read all of the thread thoroughly! Excuse my rudeness and shouting. I do not know what was going through my mind. Just a bit fed up with all the "FS is dead, FS is going to xbox we are screwed, LIVE sucks, etc."Xbox is not bad, Ryan of PMDG knows that, and he also knows LIVE is not bad, its a great way to organize a community, and its FREE (on the PC) it will just take us away from the horrible gamespy solution in FSX. I do not know why people care about LIVE being bad anyway, because they will most likely have VATSIM and IVAO or other things if they don't want to use LIVE. They should buy it for the simulation not speclation of how bad their online sevice is. (And trust me LIVE is on of the greatest online solutions ever made, and if you have EVER gotten annoyed by gamespy and why you can't send bad feedback about a player, or mute someone, see who is transmitting, you will LOVE LIVE trust me on that. This is not your average online network, this is an extremely reliable solution, made by one of the best software companies in the world, Microsoft. No matter how much you hate them, the people at Microsoft are very talented people that know how to make a good program, and they are learning from their past mistakes (Look at Windows 7... thats what I call CARING about the customer.)

[Guest ChanRak]

I don't think the 1 million versus 100 million scenario you imagine stands up to close scrutiny, although that is not to say some MS suit has not also come to the same conclusion, they don't have a monopoly on intelligent analysis.It's true that some titles on consoles can sell in those kind of numbers, but the reason FS could sell a million was that it is more than what you get in the box. FS is a base package that enthusiasts add to. That's why it could sell a million, because what you are buying is the base platform upon which you add, and that's not the case when you buy a FPS shooter or some other big selling topic, in the case of those big sellers, you get the whole shooting match in the initial purchase. With FS, its true value to most people is in what third parties can make it.The bottom line in Dollars does not translate in the same way for FS compared to most other PC titles; FS9 is over six years old and people are still buying stuff for it. Name me one FPS game or other top selling console game that is still generating that kind of revenue six years after its initial release.Al

Ok lets review something. When 98 came out many thought it was a tremendous game at that time. When 2000 came around the game took off in leaps and bounds because the scenery got 5 times better. Then when 2002 came around it put both 2000 and 98 to shame and that game took off in leaps and bound because of better graphics and more planes etc to fly. During the first two editions MS was pretty tight lipped about the codes for the game and many third party developers were bugging MS. So when 2002 was pretty much underway MS gradually started to release bit by bit the codes etc which is the sdk's. Then 2004 it was totally different and it was twice as good and better than 2002, of which MS changed a lot of the coding's which confounded the third party dealers so MS released more info on that too. A lot of it came out. Then FSX came out and had a lot of bugs and a lot of new codes again was put into place confounding many. Mainly MS concentrated more to the scenery graphics from 2002 on up. The FSX game is not that much different than from FS 9 except better graphics rendering but man it really too up a lot of processor and memory to handle it as it progressed.OK so we can see improvements over time from each release. Now they have to deal with new processors to handle speeds of which one pointed out 64 is better than 32. Granted plus other things. By the way the same applied to Playstation as well and they took off in leaps and bounds with better scenery and graphics and animation of characters. MS has not even done the Characters yet in the Flight sim which Playstation beats them by a mile. X Plane beats MS in a lot of Wx rendering and even some of their planes. When we speak of a million compared to how many kids are on this planet playing all the other games 1 million is peanuts. (I merely say 100 to 1 million as an example OK) but come on 1 million sales compared to a potential ????? is open to debate.How many kids are out there. I have already told you what they are doing in Thailand from my observation of the last 5 years. I am sure the same is in USA and in Europe and only JC knows how many in all of Asia and India. The last link on my last post pretty much sums up what MS is looking at. So MS is looking at numbers and is looking at potential income otherwise if they did not do that what do you think will happen to the business itself. MS has pretty much cornered the puter software platforms at least 80% in the entire world. Yet with the brightest of minds in their development they still get bombarded with holes that breach security constantly. So who is behind all that?????Everytime I turn around another security patch download. Just for Windows XP they have over 120 security patches alone. By the time all is said and done the Windows platform is all screwed up and does not work very good anymore. You hardly hear Linux having problems. Why is that????Time to chuckle here and take a swig of coffee ehhhhh.So now MS has decided to look at all this in a business perspective regarding long term for the future. I can understand their reasoning behind it. They are in deep trouble. So lets cut the pie here and find out what is making money and not making money. You get a couple of slices and I get a couple of slices. Hmmm , hey your slice is bigger than mine, not fair.Ahhhh, MS sees this and why. Well your slice is bringing in 100 million and mine is bringing only 1 million. Hmmmmm says the CEO. Give me one good reason why I should keep your department open the CEO asks me. Ah whaaaa ehmmmmm how should I say this????? I am stumped because I cannot generate any more than a million. So I tell him because these people love the game and we have been doing this for 27 years and the community supports us. Our record is our evidence.Ah, the CEO says, but looks at the numbers. He has to pay salary's, pay the taxes, plus a ton of other expenditures on the list, so he also has to look at the asset side profit wise. In the meantime your sitting smug on your chair knowing you are secure for your department with a nice grin, and I am sitting on the chair pissin in my pants trying to come up with some business reason to keep my department alive for another year.So the CEO finally looks up at me and I am feeling the freeze down my knees. He then says well you have done very good for the last 27 years but with all the expenses piling up asking for the extra cheesecakes and those greesy saugage and cheese pizza's and twice as many toilet paper rolls and tons of chewing gum requiring constant maintenance to remove it off the darn keyboards and you and the rest of the department are very darn good programmers who got more balls than anybody I know of, I have to heavily tell you the end has come and your department has hit the big ax my friend. In the meantime you can see me slumped over with a tear in my eyes and I look at your smiling face and I say to myself hmmm, so I speak up. I tell you lets see how long you last. I made it a 27 year run. Think you can make it. You say you betcha sweet pickles I can and maybe longer. Hmpf I say, so I walk out with my head high and go to my department an hunker everybody down and tell them the bad news. Well Ace Team its all over and we got the pink slips so lets party and order those pizzas double or nothing and send over the distillery here and get that movie machine ready so we can see the greatest movie we ever made of all time. Cheers go up and the party begins. We all leave the office for the last time. You in the meantime get my department and you have an innovative mind and work hard to grasp the untapped potential of many gamers out still enjoying ballroom dancing or playing Battlestar Galactica So you finally settle down to my chair and lo and behold, what is this. You get up and then there is a very long stretch of gum wad mixed with cheese and saugage going past the door entrance. All your employees are sick with grief looking at their desktops of various forms of graffitti but wait, we cannot even turn on the puter. Why. so your programmer comes over and takes a peek and laughs at you. No wonder he says out loud. This is a duplicate computer only a shell with nothing inside.Little did you know the ax included removing everything in my department. Viola. In the meantime I am driving down the road listening to Beethoven's sweet music laughing knowing your in for the Long Haul!!!!!.Ah, the potential fish is biting today. MS in the meantime is taking out their lathering cream and the razor and chopping off a few stubs and that number goes over 5,000 workers. Sad huh. I see this in the news and say hmmmm, betcha they miss me.So a week goes by and ring I get a call coming from huh George Frazier the new CEO at MS and Ali is the new regional chief. Wow I say quite impressive. So I say to GF whatzup man. Frazier say I need to see ya here bro, so when can you hankie over. I say well pop me a hour or so and have that pizza ready OK. He says man you still doing the cheeser still, and I say yea, we need to keep the micro fart machine pressure up bro, and Frazier says done see ya later.I go to the office of the great GF, and huh what do I see hear. I bust out laughing hard. Oh man what happened to you my friend, wow!!!!!! Still looking at the incredible creation so made. You then look at me with evil eyes and says its all your fault. I say huh dude where have you been, I not here for one week and look at you. I continue to bust out laughing hard, and go to GF. I then see the big man shake hands and ask the bro what happened to the dude outside. He says ahh nothing special. I say wow. GF says you were test playing some of the games and developed a huge electical static everything stood straight up. I say huh including his hairdo too. GF say yea man so we got to wait a bit you know those toys take time to wind itself down. I say gotcha man, so whats happening. GF says I got good news for ya, and it seems in spite of all your incredible debts and expenditures and lavish spending your team somehow gets the job done and I am tired of the Flight sim community bugging me till my ears drop off. I say man that is cool. Gf then says get the heck out of here and get your team back and please keep my office as out of bounds OK. I say sure sure no problem. I go back outside and look at the incredible office on how clean and dust free it is, and all in perfect order, I say oh gawd, I am lost in here, and then turn around and look at your incredible pic pose I bust out laughing and say peace brother and walk out of there before I pass out.End of the chuckle. So for what it is worth well MS has some very serious shortcomings and having to deal with some failed projects the past few years, it is not surprising to me to see they are cleanin up the house a bit. Every company has to watch the sheets, and if the revenue gets a bit short something has to give.These CEO's are paid by the shareholders, so these CEO's have to make good business decisions for the company. The shareholders are not interested in 1 million sales, they are interested in 100 million in sales as that is what raises up their share earnings for profits. What department it is from, it does not matter. All that matters is MONEY for their pockets.This is how business corporations run today. They have absolutely no personal interest to any specific department. They have every interest to the income and the profits to pay for their living and investments and the stock market.So here is the question > how to capture a potential 100 million kids worldwide and make good money from the games they like to play. By doing it Xbox or by downloads as payware or by live windows they cut into the pirate business itself. MS is seeking a way to control their potential sales.Ah remember the No CD patch???? You can download the game and use the No CD patch and use that exe and your in business without even trying to buy the game itself. So what can I say if part of this is affecting them in someway making this decision to cut the ACES Team.Listen FS 9 is not generating income anymore for MS. They have stopped making the game CD's 3 years ago. I myself got the last Distributor copy from MS for the asia region. I proved it on another thread here. It is generating income for 3rd party payware and shareware dealers and even that I noticed that they are trying hard to be innovative to still find ways to make money. FS 2002 is long gone and FS 2000 is ancient today. Yet it is only 2009. So the actual income generated from a new release is good for only up to 3 years tops, After that the bottom drops out and the 3rd party pick up.There is a lot of pros and cons on it and each is a different tea bag. ChanRak

[Chock 17,769]

Okay, first up, when FS 2002 came out it most certainly did not put previous FS versions to shame, in fact there were about as many complaints regarding how it ran on most people's computers as there were when FSX came out, so that's another part of your analysis that's well wide of the mark, but that's besides the point. Your rebuttal is not beside the point I made however, instead it misses the point altogether.What is more, I am not twelve years old and I don't need a childish explanation of economics based around your fantasy ideas of how boardroom conversations go. The point I made was that the scenario does not stand up to analysis, not that it was not what was taking place, so there is no need to try and ram your point home, because I agree that is what is happening. And if you had been paying attention to my reply, especially all the first sentence of it, you would have noted that I did not say it was not happening, merely that I questioned the validity of it as a well thought out approach, and I supported that assertion with an example of how people use flight simulators in the long term, which is not a scenario that is at all common with console gamers, who on average don't even keep a console for more than three years, let alone a piece of software which runs on it.Neither did I suggest that FS2004 was still making vast amounts of money for MS, I merely pointed out that it was still making money, because companies are still making stuff for it and people are still buying those products, and that was to illustrate my point about how a flight simulator sits in the world of software and its wider appeal as a corporate icon. It might not fit in with a company's desire that they want to put a complex flight simulator on a console, but whether they like it or not, that's the way it is, but it is still a presence for them among consumers. Take a look at how many flight simulator games there are for consoles, not many, and that's because your average console user is not in the least bit interested in them, could you imagine the advertising? 'Thrill as you tune the EGCC V.O.R. to 109 point 9 in preparation for a fully automated landing where you don't actually touch your console controller at all, because the autopilot is doing everything for you!'. Mmm I can see that happening.To expand on that notion, if you think being a CEO is about nothing more than money, with no consideration about the company's corporate identity, then perhaps you'd care to explain why companies spend so much on doing exactly that with their advertising budgets. Consider which product Microsoft's current 'I'm a PC' campaign is advertising. That's right, it isn't advertising any product, and by the same token it is advertising all of them, because it is about corporate identity. Microsoft does not have to spend money on that campaign, but they do, because like every other large company, they know that how they are perceived and their presence in people's minds is just as important as the products they make. So do you really imagine some maverick at MS has organised that advertising campaign without the CEO approving it?Of course not. So imagine if you will how many people will take their business away from Microsoft in a fit of pique when they feel they have been abandoned with regard to their favourite flight sim. And then further imagine that flight simulator might only make a million bucks for MS, but it's a million more than they had by not doing it and a hell of a lot more than spending money on advertising to garner the popular appeal they desire for all their core products, which most definitely are not going to show up on the X-Box, i.e the entire MS Office suite and all their PC operating systems, which I think it's safe to suppose are rarely bought by twelve year-old console owners. MS are already being challenged by Apple in that arena, and anything they can do to stem that tide, especially if it makes them a paltry million bucks, is going to be money and time well spent, and earned for that matter.You don't need a degree in economics or advertising to understand that, and you can bet that MS will figure that out too. Eventually.Al

[Guest ChanRak]

I am not going to get into a specific word deal explanation/analysis. Forget that. I just don't understand why you are contradicting yourself. I am sure this forum when making an opinion that each word and or statement and or phrase and or period or exclamation point or description or conclusion or analysis does not have to be literally picked apart via microsope and sterilized inside and out. Is this the kind of character that I am under the impression is around?????. Man, for me no way bro.I already see your opinion quite well, which is fine on the executive level and on the other hand I can see my self facing the unemployment office soon enough. At least it is a small guarantee to get a paycheck rather than none at all.How much do you think a game programmer gets paid yearly by Microsoft and I guarantee you it is not cheap either. I won't even take a guess but set the possible minimum starting number on up 300 K, not to mention overtime plus other fringe benefits added to the cake. Oh why so high> consider it like silicon valley. The pressure must be so enormous with so much competition I am sure it is one heck of a cutthroat business requiring a lot of aspirin.I did not say ever that I doubted you one bit :( ChanRak

[n4gix 4,947]

This does not make any sense. First Microsoft fires the Aces Team and then one week later rehires them back and classifies it MS Game Studios. I dare say to mention some previous comments that were made pertaining to such Game Studios on some other threads.Hmm let me see here. MS has re(hired) most of the Ex Aces team and most of those not re(hired) found other positions or other game studios.Lets see most + most = other + otherInteresting, So where did you get your source of info at????I'd like to see it.ChanRak

There is a "quote" feature available in the forum's editor. If you are going to "quote me" at least take the time to do it properly. I wrote:

...and most of those not (re)hired for the above have already found positions elsewhere in MS or other game studios...

...which is significantly different from what you tried to quote from memory. :( Point 1: MS did not "fire" the employees of ACES, they eliminated their job positions. This is not mere symantics either! This allowed for the employees to (1) file for unemployment compensation and (2) to remain eligible to apply for other open positions within Microsoft.Point 2: Paul Lange, who was one of those affected, posted on his blog months ago that he'd be (re)hired to help form the new team being assembled under the aegis of the MS Games Studio. Technically, although ACES had been part of MSGS, they were semi-autonomous, and thus were not completely under the control of MSGS. This strategic realignment now has the new team "under" MSGS's umbrella. Paul has also reported that some of the new positions have been filled from the ranks of former ACES developers.Point 3: Phil Taylor, who had left ACES prior to the breakup, has reported in his blog quite a bit of factual information that confirms and expands upon what Paul has written.Point 4: Public solicitations for "open positions" for MSGS's new team have, among other things, confirmed that the future product being planned is "flightsim related" and that it will be for the "Games for PC LIVE" distribution platform.Point 5: As should be obvious from the "Commercial Member" tag next to my user name here at AVSIM, flightsim development is how I earn my living. It should likewise be obvious that I have many sources of information that aren't generally available to the public. However, I am very careful to post only that which has already been made public knowledge from official MS sources.Anyone who is both dilligent and patient can ferret out the same information as I. Likewise, anyone who's the least bit competent can take that same information and come to the same synthesis... :(

[Guest ChanRak]

There is a "quote" feature available in the forum's editor. If you are going to "quote me" at least take the time to do it properly. I wrote:...which is significantly different from what you tried to quote from memory. :( Point 1: MS did not "fire" the employees of ACES, they eliminated their job positions. This is not mere symantics either! This allowed for the employees to (1) file for unemployment compensation and (2) to remain eligible to apply for other open positions within Microsoft.Point 2: Paul Lange, who was one of those affected, posted on his blog months ago that he'd be (re)hired to help form the new team being assembled under the aegis of the MS Games Studio. Technically, although ACES had been part of MSGS, they were semi-autonomous, and thus were not completely under the control of MSGS. This strategic realignment now has the new team "under" MSGS's umbrella. Paul has also reported that some of the new positions have been filled from the ranks of former ACES developers.Point 3: Phil Taylor, who had left ACES prior to the breakup, has reported in his blog quite a bit of factual information that confirms and expands upon what Paul has written.Point 4: Public solicitations for "open positions" for MSGS's new team have, among other things, confirmed that the future product being planned is "flightsim related" and that it will be for the "Games for PC LIVE" distribution platform.Point 5: As should be obvious from the "Commercial Member" tag next to my user name here at AVSIM, flightsim development is how I earn my living. It should likewise be obvious that I have many sources of information that aren't generally available to the public. However, I am very careful to post only that which has already been made public knowledge from official MS sources.Anyone who is both dilligent and patient can ferret out the same information as I. Likewise, anyone who's the least bit competent can take that same information and come to the same synthesis... :(

Ok point 4 is where everybody is talking about and I would assume this means no more DVD or CD Distribution. Live experience is a totally different concept. Basically this only means one thing unless MS changes it in the future. It means we will not have the items in our possession, and will have to be paying fees eventually.It has its pros and it has its cons and for me, no I will not go any further than FSX. For me the buck stops right there. After that, MS controls you for any further flight sim games in the future since it is titled Games for PC "LIVE". Like I said this is my guess and my opinion or thought which is basically very early so for now I will not hold much stock to their future plans until it becomes official.Just from those words from Point 4 I think it is safe to have a hunch of where its heading at. I sort of agree from some others who have commented on the Live issue and that they object to it.Thanks for your intellectual input pointing out my mistakesChanRak

[n4gix 4,947]

Ok point 4 is where everybody is talking about and I would assume this means no more DVD or CD Distribution. Live experience is a totally different concept. Basically this only means one thing unless MS changes it in the future. It means we will not have the items in our possession, and will have to be paying fees eventually.

Your understanding of how Games for PC LIVE works seems a bit fuzzy... :( One buys the product, downloads it to their hard drive, then runs the sim. How else could you have "offline playability" otherwise?It is even possible that one would never need to connect to the site again, although why one would not want to keep their sim up-to-date is another question entirely...It is likely one would download only the scenery required for their chief area of interest (i.e., their "home area"), and only download other scenery areas as desired. This would keep any given download to a reasonable size, for quicker delivery.

[gman! 1]

Games for Windows LIVE does not mean it will be distributed online. I think it will most likely come in CD or DVD, because the game is so large. There are other GFW LIVE titles that are released on disc, like Gears of Wars for Windows, Lost Planet, Shadow Run... Unless they do what n4gix is saying.www.gamesforwindows.com

[n4gix 4,947]

Games for Windows LIVE does not mean it will be distributed online.

In this instance it will be d/l only, unless it never gets released at all...