ADF and its Usage?

[FLEX1978 373]

I guess it seems like over in the USA they are virtualy gone, here in Europe they are still very common and as another poster mentioned you still see them along the Localizer.Rob

[downscc 1,327]

Flying an NDB approach in IMC with crosswind and seeing the airport ahead when you drop out of the clouds is one of the most satisfying accomplishments of instrument flight. I love 'em now for the challenge and opportunity to use my airmanship skills but OMG I hated them when I was working on my instrument rating.I still from habit tune in the LOM (ndb collocated with FAF or outer marker) if there is one on ILS approach to add to my situational awareness, and I use the needle swing to start my timer on the final approach. Many of these are being decommissioned in the US but there will still be plenty of locations around the world where the beacon is all you get. By the way, the timer on an ILS approach was taught to me as an important backup to GS. If you loose GS continue the approach to LOC mins and use elasped time for the missed approach (in many cases).

[Guest Boeing Skunk Works]

Showing up in a non-equipped aircraft would certainly eliminate the NDB procedures. The aircraft at our school and others I rented all had NDB. Back then it was the norm. Every aircraft had NDB and it was taken for granted that you would learn to use it and there would be an NDB procedure to accomplish on the ride.I guess it has fallen out of regular use these days in the States.

[timers15 11]

I have a random flight generator and the other day I flew an NDB approach in the MD11!!!!! Fortunately the runway had just appeared (fog, not magic) as the NDB passed underneath.

[Guest JDavidson]

...and the other great thing about ADF is that you can use the equipment to tune in a 'fun' radio station to listen to, for example BBC World Service (although I suspect that this might not be modelled here!). Definitely whiles away the hours on long trips.James

[Guest Soulman]

I guess most pilots must feel this way because NDB approaches are out of favor. Folks avoid them during IFR check rides like plague, if they can only satisfy "two non-precision approaches" requirements some other way - they do it.

This simply demonstrates a lack of both the knowledge and skill of the pilot.A competent pilot will never have a need to avoid them like the plague...Regards,Jeremy

[Turbo_prop 0]

Hey Soulman.. You avoid what you can avoid.. But it does not mean that pilot's don't have the knowledge of an NDB approach.You go through all procedures during your instrument training and even practice in the simulators and in the airplane with your instructor before any checkride.The NDB is pretty stressfull because you really need to mentaly stay infront of your airplane all the time, and when you are on a checkride you allready are stressed out.The human mind can only deal with that much stress, and when you upon that have to do an NDB approach with the hood on, you can easily reach your stress limit.What happens then is that the mind confuses every input it gets from your surroundings and you mess up. This example is of course for a pilot that just finished his/her's flight trainingand have a limited time IFR and are sitting there with 35 hours of instrument training and are going for a checkride. As experience comes you tackle your tasks more easily.I have a friend of mine who was a captain on the Dornier 228 in Norway for a number of years (He is now a FO in a 737). They flew to alot of small airstrips in the northern part of Norway, and some of those airport had only NDB approaches.Every now and then he would get a company check pilot on his flights, and he was required to do the NDB approaches with a loaded airplanefull of passengers. He said that you get used to the NDB's like everything else and finally you don't even think about them. You just do them.I think even in his new job flying the 737 they are required to do an NDB approach when ever he is in the Simulator doing checkups.I do not see any problems of performing an NDB approach in the 737 eighter. You have the autopilot to relieve some of the stress involved in NDB approaces.I'm pretty sure most of us realworld pilots on this forum has tried a NDB approach in the PMDG 737 and it worked out just fine?

[Paul_Smith 92]

I have to agree with soulman here, NDB is just another technique. How much simpler does it get then "The needle points to the beacon". If the pilot really has that much difficulty getting their head around the idea that wind will blow them off course and must be corrected for, (i.e. the difference between heading and track) then you really must ask if they should be flying at all.Such a pilot will not be more comfortable with VOR. Point the plane on the heading of a radial and you are going to be off course pretty soon and that pilot won't know why.Such a pilot will not be able to work out their fuel needs, since they can't allow for head wind and tail wind components on each leg. Such a pilot won't even be able to tell you when they expect to reach their destination? What then? Do they just keep going until they get lucky? Most aircraft do not have a menu option with a moving map updated by magic so its always accurate. The whole point of instrument flying is to put your aircraft exactly where you want it to be, when you want it to be there, wether or not you can see out the windows. The techniques used for NDB approaches form the basis of all other techniques. If you are not comfortable with them, then go and practice until you are comfortable.

[jon b 2,041]

The NDB procedure will be coded in the FMC so,depending on company procedures, can be flown using LNAV and VNAV woth the raw data needles displayed on the ND just to confirm that the pink string is in the right place. In this respect flying the NDB aproach in a modern FMC/EFIS equiped aircraft is exactly the same as flying a VOR or RNAV aproach. The aircraft takes care of the tracking. Lazy? relative to an analouge flight deck yes maybe, but its a hell of a lot safer,especially at the end of a long haul flight.cheers Jon

[Guest Buzz313th]

Fly your Vor approaches entirely on the RMI without DME (on a non dme required approach ofcourse) and you will find yourself practicing the same skills required for almost all DME approaches. I prefer flying the approaches referencing the RMI anyway. As long as you know your radial and can modify your heading for changing conditions to stay on track, it's easier to build situational awareness for the navigation environment.Jeff Barco

[Guest Soulman]

Hey Soulman.. You avoid what you can avoid.. But it does not mean that pilot's don't have the knowledge of an NDB approach.

I avoid things like thunderstorms and aircraft which are not airworthy. NDB approaches do not fall into this category.

The NDB is pretty stressfull because you really need to mentaly stay infront of your airplane all the time

As has been pointed out in an earlier post, staying in front of the aircraft is paramount in every operation - not just an NDB approach.

The human mind can only deal with that much stress, and when you upon that have to do an NDB approach with the hood on, you can easily reach your stress limit.What happens then is that the mind confuses every input it gets from your surroundings and you mess up.

This is commonly referred to as a loss of situation awareness or spatial disorientation. Again, this only highlights a deficiency in the knowledge and skill of the candidate. If they cannot successfully and confidently complete an NDB approach then they are clearly not ready to sit the IFR exam.Regards,Jeremy.

[Guest Soulman]

Hey Soulman.. You avoid what you can avoid.. But it does not mean that pilot's don't have the knowledge of an NDB approach.

I avoid things like thunderstorms and aircraft which are not airworthy. NDB approaches do not fall into this category.

The NDB is pretty stressfull because you really need to mentaly stay infront of your airplane all the time

As has been pointed out in an earlier post, staying in front of the aircraft is paramount in every operation - not just an NDB approach.

The human mind can only deal with that much stress, and when you upon that have to do an NDB approach with the hood on, you can easily reach your stress limit.What happens then is that the mind confuses every input it gets from your surroundings and you mess up.

This is commonly referred to as a loss of situation awareness or spatial disorientation. Again, this only highlights a deficiency in the knowledge and skill of the candidate. If they cannot successfully and confidently complete an NDB approach then they are clearly not ready to sit the IFR exam.Regards,Jeremy.

[hopskip 253]

A lot of Fields in Australia also have NDB approaches. Not frequented by heavys admittedly, but occasionally by aircraft as large as E190's and OzJet's 737-200 (deftinatley not flying LNAV on that one ;) )Here's one of my favourite. an NDB approach to no airfield.http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications...BMLNB01-113.pdfOf course there are lots more, (with real places to land at after them too lol) but alot of them are starting to get RNAV and GPS/GNSS approaches to suppliment the NDB approach. but still no VOR or ILS's----Trent Hopkinson

[LeFreak 0]

as an F/O for a European carrier, I fly around all of Europe. NDB approaches don't happen that often on the sectors we fly, 99% we will be flying ILS approaches. However, the use of NDB's in SID's is not uncommon and as such we often have to track a certain qdm/qdr from an NDB. It is nothing to be afraid off, yes it requires more vigilance than tracking a VOR or a LOC, but every IFR rated pilot should be able to fly correctly NDB approaches. On our aircraft we track NDB's with a good old RMI, or we can put the bearing on the Nav Display .. but in the end it all comes down to use your brain, apply wind correction and do what you are (supposedly) trained for. I'm not gonna say i'm a big fan of NDB's, but there are still quiet a few of them around, and once in a while it's fun to fly and a nice change from the mindless ILS ..JanF/O Avro RJ85/100MCC Instructor

[downscc 1,327]

I read a book years ago by an early TWA pilot, Robert Taylor I think... anyway, it was facinating for the description of flying the radio ranges... I have an old approach plate for O'Hare and the only navaids were A-N legs.... wow... that was pretty scary stuff.