Dan Down - KSEA DP Question

[jordanal 70]

[edit: sorry Dan, I just realized I mis-spelled your last name and can't figure out how to edit the subject :( ]Hey Dan,I usually install your latest PMDG SID-STARS (currently 0904) after all others and I have a quesiton about KSEA (assuming it is in your monthly collection).I prep'd a flight from KSEA last night to KIAD and using FSBuild, I planned to use the MountainSix (MONTN6) departure procedure for 34R/16L, before progressing onto J90, starting at NORMY. But when I fired-up the MD-11, I couldn't find the MONTN6 DP. Among those DP's noted in FSBuild, I found DP's such as J50.NOATC, J70.NOATC, and J90.NOATC which I did not recognize as possible DP's when creating the plan in FSBuild.MONTN6 DP here: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/SEA/DP/MOUNTAIN+SIXI ususally refer to online charts such as those on flightware.com while working-up a plan in FSBuild, then import them into Activesky, Radar Contact, and FS Flight Keeper. I then fire-up the sim and it was at this point I was surprised not to see this particular DP in the FMC.Can you check the MONTN6 and if you have time, help my train-of-thought as to what I might see in the FMC versus standard DP's as noted in FSBuild or Flightaware.com, prior to ever loading the sim?I like to make the first waypoint in my FP (as exported to the sim and addons) about 20 to 40nm out or a common DP-transition, so that I don't get pinged by RC during departure if the recipricol runway is in use; such as when the winds are perpendicular. Then after loading the sim, I look for a particular DP after noting which direction of my planned runway RC and AI are using.Thanks again for your help and cycles...

[downscc 1,327]

I am familiar with this DP, but it doesn't appear in the SID list because it is a vectors-only departure (no route except South departures up to a fix where you turn East).Open the KSEA.txt file and you will see a header that lists all the SIDS, applicable runways and the departure fixes. There is also the following note:// Exceptions:// MOUNTAIN & SEATTLE DPs Excluded: Vectors Only/No RoutesAs noted in the header, the custom departure J90BLUIT.E joins the J12-70-90 airway at BLUIT and provides transitions to the next VOR, which on J90 is MWH. The method used to name these custom procedures that arrive/depart on airways instead of fixes is in the readme file, and might seem confusing but I try to be consistent. The name says you will join J90 at BLUIT heading Easterly. This an unplublished departure (but I use the MOUNTAIN procedure by the way) so you cannot use it by name in a flight planner but you can still get the same route by using the string KSEA BLUIT J90 ...etc.I join the airway at BLUIT instead of NORMY because NORMY is only 24nm from SEA and ATC will normally keep you off the Jet airway during the climb to your initial cruise altitude. I usually join an airway at the next fix but this one was just a little to close in my judgement.Once you figure out my scheme, I think it can work very well for you. Hope this helps.

[jordanal 70]

Oh thanks Dan, now I get your custom routes. Duh, RTFM, or readme in this case! :( Quick follow on question - according to the MONTN6 plate (link above) both north and south each have a fix, NEZUG and NICHY respectively. Do not these single-point departures still count as a route and not just vectors-only for inclusion in your plans? I liked it because it still gave me a DP, but simple enough to get me DIRECT To NORMY. Not knowing the exact definition of vectors-only, IMHO, perhaps it should still have been included as a DP for all Runways? Again, I am just long-time FS hobbiest without any RW experience so my opinion really should be taken with a grain-of-salt :( Thank you for the J90BLUIT.E DP info. I will modify my FP toninght by removing NORMY and make BLUIT or maybe even MWH the first waypoint and give it another go.

[downscc 1,327]

In real world, you would be expected to fly to the fix NEZUG or NICHY then fly the heading shown on the plate until assigned a vector by departure. You would also be observing the altitude restriction assigned by the SID, which ususally provides separtation with the arrivals on a downwind. In my experience, departure may just leave you alone except for a higher altitude restriction and pass you to center once you climb through the ceiling of their airspace and center will clear you direct to MWH. Other times you might get vectored around, just depends on direction of flow and how busy things are.I would encode MOUNTAIN if it actually had a departure gate, but the NEZUG/NICHY fixes are really just turn points and do not in themselves constitute a "route." If you are using an ATC service and want the fixes just enter them instead of a SID and set HDG to the 070 heading or whatever is called out on the chart, then fly to the fix and then change from NAV to HDG SEL and wait for vectors. In other words, the manual operation is easier than using an encoded SID.

[jordanal 70]

Ah, I see. Thank you again for a view of RW ops and the follow-up. Much appreciated.

[Tabs 2,790]

Yeah this is a good point to bring up too - real world ops do not always involve selecting a DP on the FMC prior to takeoff - if you have a simple departure where you know you're going to be getting ATC vectors, often it's just going to be setting the heading you're turning to after TO, maybe drawing a couple DME rings or radials with the FIX page and then just flying the plane with HDG SEL...I know here in Phoenix in the real world for instance, you often just get an immediate climb to FL210 and a direct clearance to either the first major waypoint downrange on the DP or all the way to the transition fix/VOR itself. Like take the Buckeye 2 (BXK2) - that procedure has a bunch of stuff early on involving flying out to to PXR 13DME on a 240 heading, then intercepting a specific radial to BXK etc - it doesn't happen in real life, it's just "climb FL210, cleared direct BXK" when you contact departure control every single time I've been on a flight or been listening on liveatc.

[downscc 1,327]

BUCKEYE is a good example of how TERPS works, I think the reason for the turn to 240 until PXRd13 then 280 to intercept BXKr077 to BXK is hinted at by the min rate of climb of 350/nm to 7000 indicated on the chart. When the DP is designed they have to look at the terrain and provide for a pretty generous clearance from the hills West of Luke AFB and SW of KPHX. I'm sure the cleared direct BXK is only offerred with radar available or VMC wx... well there you go, doesn't Phoenix have 350 sunny days per year?

[Orlaam 306]

doesn't Phoenix have 350 sunny days per year?

Pretty much. :(