Major 3D Breakthrough - Maybe MS Bailed To Quickly

[SAS263 1]

Ulf, this is a snip from this review."Now that you're all set up, it's time to connect the cables. As I said, the receiver is attached to the main USB cable and the transmitter is hooked up by a 9mm jack. Halfway along the USB cable is a splitter for the transmitter to plug in to. Once done, simply connect the cable into the USB slot, using the extender if necessary."From this review it works just as well as the TrackIR for MSFS only at half the price of a TrackIR. Adequate or not, well that depends on ones needs ;)

[Guest UlfB]

Ulf, this is a snip from this review."Now that you're all set up, it's time to connect the cables. As I said, the receiver is attached to the main USB cable and the transmitter is hooked up by a 9mm jack. Halfway along the USB cable is a splitter for the transmitter to plug in to. Once done, simply connect the cable into the USB slot, using the extender if necessary."From this review it works just as well as the TrackIR for MSFS only at half the price of a TrackIR. Adequate or not, well that depends on ones needs ;)

Tord,Thanks for your reply. The transmitter is not cordless and you nead a headseat to attach it. The TrackIR only needs the reflection points to be attached to a cap and no need of any cords. I'll stick to my TrackIR, since it's superior to my needs.

[gman! 1]

Gman....I must admit that I too am skeptical. I don't see the connection to 3-D either. But he makes a point in all of his videos that a 3-D effect exists and that the screen no longer appears "flat" in real life when no camera is used.Then to your camera point. That camera passes an object in space and gets behind it where the object is completely out of view. As Andy Griffith has always insisted upon as his key to succeed in movies and I quote, "You can't fool a camera, it sees everything". Also, he shows the image from the same camera before switching on the sensor, and it's completely flat.As a doubter myself I have searched Google and so far have not found anyone to support your point of view on this subject.But I do remain a doubter myself.The only possible explanation I can muster, is that the image itself is software calculated based on the known head position which it gets from the sensor. That's why I think a game would have to be specially "coded" for use with this device. That could present real drawbacks and limitations. But it might be a very clever break through too.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

The sensor is just telling the computer where the "camera" or the viewpoint is by detecting infrared beams, it does not give the scene any "3D" effect. It is the same as any other 6DOF solution. You have to understand how a scene is rendered to see that it is the "computer" instead of the sensor/wiimote. If you had the SAME scene with the targets on a "pole" with TrackIR, you would get the SAME results, heck you can even do it with a mouse and keyboard, except it would be difficult. The sensor/wiimote is not giving it any "3D" look, it is the computer or if you understand, the scene rendered. He used the targets mounted in space to clearly show what 6DOF can do for a virtual environment. If he used the sensor/wiimote with FS it would be exactly the same as TrackIR. The video camera also makes the effect point out even more, because a video camera is not a human eye. In real life, he would NOT see any "3D" effects or targets coming out of the screen. Again, this does not create any 3D effect, nor is it a breakthrough unfortunately. It is just a very cheap alternative to TrackIR, which is not as mature, with lots of software/developer support. Search the youtube comments for TrackIR and you will see what I mean. ("see all comments").Almost forgot. EVERYTHING displayed on a screen, will ALWAYS be 2D

[Charlie Chew 0]

There is a better alternative:free-track.netThe software is free, runs great in FSX and other programs (I've been using it for about two years with no complaints), and, as the OP may be interested to know, can be used with a WII via bluetooth for 6DOF head tracking.

[Manny 1,293]

The sensor is just telling the computer where the "camera" or the viewpoint is by detecting infrared beams, it does not give the scene any "3D" effect. It is the same as any other 6DOF solution. You have to understand how a scene is rendered to see that it is the "computer" instead of the sensor/wiimote. If you had the SAME scene with the targets on a "pole" with TrackIR, you would get the SAME results, heck you can even do it with a mouse and keyboard, except it would be difficult. The sensor/wiimote is not giving it any "3D" look, it is the computer or if you understand, the scene rendered. He used the targets mounted in space to clearly show what 6DOF can do for a virtual environment. If he used the sensor/wiimote with FS it would be exactly the same as TrackIR. The video camera also makes the effect point out even more, because a video camera is not a human eye. In real life, he would NOT see any "3D" effects or targets coming out of the screen. Again, this does not create any 3D effect, nor is it a breakthrough unfortunately. It is just a very cheap alternative to TrackIR, which is not as mature, with lots of software/developer support. Search the youtube comments for TrackIR and you will see what I mean. ("see all comments").Almost forgot. EVERYTHING displayed on a screen, will ALWAYS be 2D

You are telling me what I just saw in that You tube is all a lie! Yes, I know 3D images is 2D in real life. Its the perception of it that matters. Thats like someone telling me that the Flight Sim is not real. :)This is not the same as Track IR stuff. I have Track IR. There are some elements/featuers that are in Track IR. To me this looks like this is 3D without the 3D glasses!

[Chock 17,769]

Although it does look a lot like the targets are coming off the screen in that demo video, as others have pointed out, it is the shape and pattern of them against the grid which enhances the 3D look. As far as using that sort of thing with virtual cockpits is concerned, it is no different from Track-IR. But...If any of you have ever tried EDimensional's 3D shutter glasses, you will know that it really is possible to get a genuine 'coming off the screen' effect with those things, because they emulate the parallax separation of a target from two different eye viewpoints, and simulating parallax is the only way you really will see something in three dimensions. Expensive dual layer monitors can emulate that 3D shutter effect too, without the glasses, but they are still simulating parallax.I tried that with a few FS aircraft years ago and the effect of the throttles and yoke jumping into 3D space in the default DC-3 cockpit was startling, although to be honest it does kind of have a 'pop up book' feel about it, which is nevertheless quite exciting. less convincing however, is the notion that what you see below you through the cockpit windows is thousands of feet away, because as with the real world, from up high you are looking onto an essentially flat plane, where the parallax effect cannot help to emulate depth, although if there is an intermediate could layer, that can indeed look pretty convincing.Where the real problems begin however with flight sims is that it is difficult to use your keyboard when using EDimensional's shutter glasses (and unless you have one of those expensive dual layer monitors, you're screwed on this front), so you do need a virtual cockpit where everything is very easily clickable, and some keys assigned to your joystick, because you are effectively shut out visually from the real world. It can make using things such as the mouse to change radio frequencies difficult, although I may revisit that sort of thing because virtual copilots whom you can command with voice could change the radios etc, and that might make it more practical. Before such things were reliable enough to consider for daily use, that limitation made 3D effects nothing more than a novelty in FS as far as practicality went for all but the most basic cockpits, where no switches needed to be operated.Reliable voice control, good virtual cockpits and some means to convey a genuine 3D space could make flight simming very much more realistic, and those technologies are all already here, which means the Wii malarkey we see in that video is certainly not a massive breakthrough except in terms of exposing the kind of thing Track-IR etc can do to a wider user base, which the Wii console undoubtedly has in comparison to users of Track-IR on PC flight sims.It's good to see that sort of thing coming through to a wider audience though, although I'm one of those people who tends to think that a lot of the stuff on the Wii is totally pointless, in that it often has applications which are perfectly possible to do in the real world without it. This video sums up that ethos:

Al

[Guest UlfB]

You are telling me what I just saw in that You tube is all a lie! Yes, I know 3D images is 2D in real life. Its the perception of it that matters. Thats like someone telling me that the Flight Sim is not real. :)This is not the same as Track IR stuff. I have Track IR. There are some elements/featuers that are in Track IR. To me this looks like this is 3D without the 3D glasses!

Manny,If you build yourself a VC for FSX with targets attached to white pins, you'll get exactly the same experience with that panel and TrackIR as with the you tube demo. There is no magic about this.

[Toys_R_Us 0]

While not claiming to be an expert on this, I know what I see, and this is not any Tracker IR. As most of you probably know, this illusion has been used at Disneyland in Orlando for many years and is quite spectacular. Tracker ID or any other head tracker does not create any depth illusion. That's why this has attracted 6.5 million YouTube hits.So having done a little research this morning I find that Tracker IR and this device are two totally different things. Tracker IR is a head position device, with panning capability. This application is a "Window Portal" device with no panning capability. The end use is completely different unless the game is built for it.From what I read, a true 3-D illusion with spacial effect can be created in such a window portal device, creating a realistic illusion of depth and space. I further read that this illusion is dependant upon head movement, which tricks the brain into believing it sees depth from "expectation". Some believe that this requirement for head movement is a problem for game developers, where others think that the game developers will create the need for this movement in the game itself.One more thing......April 20,2009About MeJohnny Chung Lee I am currently a researcher in the Applied Sciences group at Microsoft. I recently graduated from Carnegie Mellon University with a PhD in Human-Computer Interaction. My research interests are in creating enabling techniques that can significantly increase the accessibility of technology.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

[gman! 1]

While not claiming to be an expert on this, I know what I see, and this is not any Tracker IR. As most of you probably know, this illusion has been used at Disneyland in Orlando for many years and is quite spectacular. Tracker ID or any other head tracker does not create any depth illusion. That's why this has attracted 6.5 million YouTube hits.So having done a little research this morning I find that Tracker IR and this device are two totally different things. Tracker IR is a head position device, with panning capability. This application is a "Window Portal" device with no panning capability. The end use is completely different unless the game is built for it.From what I read, a true 3-D illusion with spacial effect can be created in such a window portal device, creating a realistic illusion of depth and space. I further read that this illusion is dependant upon head movement, which tricks the brain into believing it sees depth from "expectation". Some believe that this requirement for head movement is a problem for game developers, where others think that the game developers will create the need for this movement in the game itself.One more thing......April 20,2009About MeJohnny Chung Lee I am currently a researcher in the Applied Sciences group at Microsoft. I recently graduated from Carnegie Mellon University with a PhD in Human-Computer Interaction. My research interests are in creating enabling techniques that can significantly increase the accessibility of technology.Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

For the last time this and trackIR ARE THE SAME THING. They are BOTH 6DOF head position trackers. You HAVE to understand technology and the way objects are rendered in a 3D evnironment on a computer to understand this. To make it easier to understand, the SCENE with the targets on pins in combination with a video camera is what makes you THINK its 3D in the video, but in real life, it does NOT look like its comming out of the screen from the human eye. To get the 3D effect you need to have a 3D device that takes the image encodes them in 3D with red/blue, red/green. That is why you need the 3D glasses. This is NOT 3D, nor does it have a 3D effect for the last time. You will NEVER be able to see something looking like it is coming out of the screen with the human eye without a special 3D video device that does the red/green thing, and the wiimote/sensor bar does NOT use that. All it is 6DOF tracking simple as that, enough said. I will not argue anymore, because it seems like no one understands.Applied sciences at Microsoft does not mean anything to me, or most people that know about technology, because anyone can do this easily. It has been done SOO many times. NaturalPoint, which is the manufacturer of TrackIR is the first company to patent the technology back in 1997.(but they patented it in the way THEY [NaturalPoint] use it, so Johnny is not violating any patents)

[n4gix 4,947]

I will not argue anymore, because it seems like no one understands.

Thank you. :(

[Toys_R_Us 0]

gman...Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it !That proof is in what I see, and I see spacial effects. All over the web they talk of a true spacial effect in this device not present in current head tracker technology. That is the only thing that has raised attention to this subject and I see no refutting posts or evidence so far on this subject anywhere except yours. And I've looked extensively. Both Business Week and Popular Mechanics report true spacial 3-D effect on his invention. I will conceed that this does not make it true.I have seen the spacial effect movie at Disneyworld many times and it is truly spectacular. The objects float right out over the audience and it is outright spooky. Hard to believe in fact. Sometimes they are right above the seat immediately in front of you and one just wants to reach out and touch them. So I know it can be done. This appears on the surface, to be the same thing or at the least very similar, but without glasses.Until proven differently, I am not closing my mind to the thought that someone has figured out how to do the same thing but without glasses. That is what technological innovation is all about, and that is what this man set out to do as he so states in his videos.I too, however, want to see more proof..... :( Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

[gman! 1]

It's good to see that sort of thing coming through to a wider audience though, although I'm one of those people who tends to think that a lot of the stuff on the Wii is totally pointless, in that it often has applications which are perfectly possible to do in the real world without it. This video sums up that ethos:

Al

Thank you. :(

BRILLIANT xD

Let's just agree to disagree.That proof is in what I see, and I see spacial effect. All over the web they talk of a true spacial effect in this device not present in current head tracker technology. That is the only thing that has raised attention to this subject and I see no refutting posts or evidence so far on this subject anywhere except yours. And I've looked extensively. Both Business Week and Popular Mechanics report true spacial 3-D effect on his invention. I will conceed that this does not make it true.I have seen the spacial effect movie at Disneyworld many times and it is truly spectacular. The objects come right out over the audience and it is outright spooky. Hard to believe in fact. Sometimes they are right above the seat immediately in front of you. So I know it can be done. This appears on the surface, to be the same thing or at the least very similar, but without glasses.Until proven differently, I am not closing my mind to the thought that someone has figured out how to do the same thing but without glasses. That is what technological innovation is all about, and that is what this man set out to do as he so states.I too, however, want to see more proof..... :( Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

You are entitled to your opinon, so you can believe it, no problem. but....Its called.... drumroll..... software aka 3D graphics, rendering technology, OpenGL/DirectX, etc, etc, etc. We have all seen it when we play a "3D" game. Those people on businessweek, popularmechanics, etc. that reviewed it either do not know that it is not the HARDWARE (wiimote and sensorbar) which a 6DOF head tracker which TrackIR is as well, and do not know about 3D video rendering enough OR they are not explaining the 3D video rendering on the computer which creates the scene to demonstarte the 6DOF headtracking that TrackIR already does. The difference between this guy and TrackIR is it is EXACTLY the same technology, BUT... Johnny is using it mainly for SCIENCE and reasearch it seems, while TrackIR is mainly focused towards gaming.I am done explaing :(Maybe you should post this on the tomshardware forums. They can probably do a better job of explaining this than me...

[Murmur 3,941]

The Wii breakfast video is priceless! :( Regarding TrackIR vs Wii tracker, contrary to what Gman says, THERE IS indeed a big difference between the two, but IT'S ONLY in the way the software manages the 3d view/movement. I'll try to explain it better with a picture:As you can see, when I move my head in TrackIR, the whole point of view AND the viewport is moved.It's like as if I'm holding a frame with my hands and looking through it while I move myself.On the other hand, when I move my head using that Wii tracker, the viewport remains fixed and ONLY the point of view moves.In this case, it's like as if I'm watching outside from a fixed windows.This explains why, with the Wii tracker, there is a very convincing 3D effect that is not present using TrackIR.It is important to note that TrackIR is perfectly capable to offer those same 3D effects, but it would need a different software.Why doesn't TrackIR use the other method? Probably because it would be less practical to use in a flight simulator: infact, while offering a more convincing 3D effect, from what I see the "Wii tracker" method does not allow rotations of the view (e.g. to look over the wings, or at six o'clock), and requires large and unpractical movements of the head (close to the screen) to see the instruments.Marco

[Toys_R_Us 0]

Marco....I think you are exactly right. As I stated earlier, I think the game has to be layed out for this device, and that includes a "practical use" organization of the game itself. Note in the video how he "dodges" around in one part of the video. So we produce a "Starwars" game between asteroids. That's what I mean. I have no idea if this is of practical value for flight simulator. But I'd bet you dinner that Tracker IR has looked at this as an upgrade software option, and I further would not be surprised to see it at some point.It would be interesting to know how the very believable BLUE/RED glasses actually work to create this same effect and why. And then make a comparison to the angle exposure relative to the altered 3-D film, and the way Mr. Lee is doing it with a computer. Therein is what he may have known up front or lucked into.Aside from spacial effect, this idea could have a monumental effect on televised sports, for example. Properly done, one could "bite off as much as they want to chew" of the full few or desired angle, and then in digital HD do a quick "digital" zoom as desired in and out. This, of course, on the longer term would require TV cameras and sets made for this feature but could be spectacular. Hey.... Whats next after HD ? And just look whos' got this guy !!!!!Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

[Guest]

This explains why, with the Wii tracker, there is a very convincing 3D effect that is not present using TrackIR.

I see what you mean, but this does not show or explain that things are actually popping out of the screen, which is what we all mean when we say 3D. It offers another perspective but not real 3D. To me and everyone else that Youtube movie looks 3D because of the kind of pictures they used and because the moves are 'followed' by the camera . But when you are in that room you would see the EXACT same on that screen and you would see it was flat. That Youtube video is not real 3D on your computer, is it? Not is it on that screen. Take ANY video that has things moving in front of a background in a similar way, put it on tv and film it (while following the moves with the camera!) and it will look like 3D on the resulting video.