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Cactus521

"Sad of the Year" award

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Having visited their slightly updated web site, I'd like to be the first to congratulate 'Bobbo' and his 'team' at Ariane for winning their VMAX award which boasts 'pride of place' on their front page.This most prestigious award was made to Ariane by a very obscure FS related web site which has a total of 31 members, was launched on January 15th of this year and has not been updated in any way since January 18th.They must be so proud!Toni.(Whatever happened to those running that web site?)

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I've learned to enjoy the Ariane site for it's entertainment value, the same way I enjoy infomercials for the claims made. But, having said that, I am happy to see many freeware developers coming out with repaints of the Ariane, especially in the European liveries that seem more creative than the ones we have in the States. Also, a recent release of a real livery offers a "poor man's" Ariane BBJ. There's a funny blurb on the Ariane site about them threatening to pull the "repaint sale" link, because (to paraphrase) "promises" made by users to purchase more liveries haven't been kept. Sadly for Ariane, the FFX project got underway. Free liveries, worth waiting for (in the case of the coming 300/400/500). Liveries look great for screenshots. In the cockpit, I'm too busy to care whether my aircraft is green or blue. Well, actually I do care, because I at least want a high visibility livery so traffic can see me :)Once FFX got going, they produced (or are in the process of producing) aircraft which IMHO are superior visually in external views to Ariane's. I'm not talking about the views in close, where Bobbo likes to cite accuracy to the last bolt. I'm talking about FFX's overall view, the use of dynamic shine, etc...FFX's dynamic wing views aren't photoreal, but they are really close. I think Bobbo wants to place blame on his users for lack of sales, instead of looking at the competition, his "style", and the pocketbooks of the average consumer. I have over twenty liveries for FFX's outstanding, superb, amazing 737-200 (and I am happy on the outstanding Aircal livery). At the cheapest rate Ariane charges, such a collection would cost me about $150 US. FFX came in and saved my pocketbook, so I could spend my $$$$ on Eaglesoft's Beechjet :)Edit: I really need to note, I've been incensed since reading Ariane's blurb about the repaints, and had to post my thoughts. Commercial vendors blaming users for anything is really bad style, and the blurb I'm discussing was buried in their news section....I only caught it because I DO check Ariane's site for some of the freeware liveries being produced...

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JohnI also understand that although a commercial release, the forthcoming Precision Manuals (PMDG) 737NG series will fully support free repaints from the outset, and there will be hundreds of liveries available at no extra cost. Sounds similar to the Dreamfleet policy of allowing free repaints.By allowing some repaints and refusing others, I believe that Ariane is trying to give the impression of helping the freeware painters whilst still retaining control based on greed (and presumably, a desparate need for sales revenue). It seems that any approaches to release certain paint schemes that Ariane can claim 'they thought of first and are releasing their own (payware) version' are being refused upload permissions, and it's only a matter of time as to whether or not those liveries will indeed appear.It's great to see those repaints appearing in the Avsim Screen Shots area but sad to read about the frustration felt by uploads being refused by 'Bobbo'. Such a waste of talent.I hope those very talented 'painters' will be more appreciated in the FFX and PMDG arenas, as they truly have been when repainting the Dreemfleet planes.<..."promises" made by users to purchase more liveries haven't been kept.> What's that all about? Did a number of Ariane customers promise to buy more liveries from Ariane but didn't end up buying them? If I was 'Bobbo', I'd have such customers shot! Fancy breaking a promise like that? Shameful!!! :D :D :D Toni.

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I was sad to hear that the PMDG 737 series won't include the photoreal "dynamic" wing views that make casual simming such a pleasure with the FFX birds.I told Bobbo in an email once he should come down on pricing for his liveries. I said people would buy--but I think that was before he started the famous "date" game. But what kept me from buying was the confusing prose on his site--making it seem to me at least that a livery pack wasn't as up to date as the full fledged package. I think he could have done himself a favor by releasing a base model package, and separate livery packs. On bandwidth and server space alone, he would have saved a fortune. I guess we have to face that there are two types of businesses in our community. Those that make money in partnership with our community, and those that make money on the shoulders of our community. I think businesses in the former category have "day jobs", and aren't in it as the sole means to feed their families. Businesses in the latter category can get caught up in it all, falling into the dot.com mindset that every consumer it the potential ticket to "easy street". That's my read on it. Whatever the situation, there are more choices today, and more importantly, choices with more thought and work behind them, like Eaglesoft's project. If I am going to spend my money, I want to know someone worked hard to get it, instead of when the mood suited them.

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"I guess we have to face that there are two types of businesses in our community. Those that make money in partnership with our community, and those that make money on the shoulders of our community."Couldn't have said it any better myself. Colin

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you got it, thats like it is.few years even months ago, the scene was clean, proper, sober...Now everyone able to spell aircraft is a devel and wants to make money out of the hobby.worse than wallstreet....

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I don't mind people wanting to make money from the hobby.... I wouldn't mind doing it myself. It's how I do it that would weigh on my soul.... I certainly wouldn't want to position myself above, or somehow apart, from the customers. In customer service (paid that is, since some hold freeware to this standard), when the customer says "jump", first words out should be "how high".... Not "whaddaya think its worth?" Only thing like that which comes to mind is an experience with a gung-ho salesperson at a car dealership. I'll never forget one who I met--I asked him if a car I wanted had ABS. He said "Sir, all cars today have ABS"....

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thats what I meant, two types of business, one ok, one not! too much of the "not" type currently.I agreed with Colin, he posted a quote from yourself, so I agree with you.

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Excuse my lack of technical knowledge, but on the assumption that the wing 'dynamics' are realistically animated (e.g. when seen in spot view), won't it be quite easy to create the views you want by moving the eyepoint down the fuselage etc. (similar to Ariane's original 'wing' views)?Toni.

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John and Toni,I had a correspondence recently with some idiots running Ariane's "support." E-mail me and I can send you the series of e-mails that are rather amusing, for how they show just how disfunctional and ridiculous the whole Ariane operation is.

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I own their TCAS II panel thought, hope they could fix some system logics in the update maybe. I fly it with FFX and yeodesigns model

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I own their TCAS II panel thought, hope they could fix some system logics in the update maybe. I fly it with FFX and yeodesigns model

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"Excuse my lack of technical knowledge, but on the assumption that the wing 'dynamics' are realistically animated (e.g. when seen in spot view), won't it be quite easy to create the views you want by moving the eyepoint down the fuselage etc. (similar to Ariane's original 'wing' views)?"No--and this has been discussed before. The shifting of the eyepoint in spot view is a fudge, and is nothing like having the wings cloned so they can be viewed from cockpit/vc mode. The biggest drawback of the spot view "trick" is you can't pan around as you could from the cockpit or a pax perspective. I posted a message on PMDG's forum, and received a quick (and very professional, btw) response saying that they did not intend on including such views in their model. So an edit to the eyepoint in the aircraft.cfg will yield no wing views, since they are not part of the virtual model. PMDG's strength I believe will be for those who want to fly based on cockpit drill. And FFX's 737-3/4/5 and NG series will replace Ariane's as "the choice" for those who like the virtual, dynamic wing views. IOTW, cya Ariane! I can fly any livery I want now :)

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...and no doubt there'll be published solutions to be able to fly the FFX planes with the PMDG panels etc. Then you'll get the 'best of both worlds.' And free liveries too! Can't wait...FS2004?FFX 737-3/4/5?PMDG 737 plus panel, systems etc?Adios Ariane, PT, 'Bobbo', 'Nev' etc?Looks like Christmas may come early this year! :-lol Toni.

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What's really sad is that I could tell exactly what this thread would be about before I even opened it, simply by the names involved. The obsession of some posters borders on the pathological, sorry to say.

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"The obsession of some posters borders on the pathological, sorry to say."As long as there are businesses out there willing to "play" with our community, I'll be more than happy to maintain a pathological obsession. And before posting such a snide remark like you have, you may well remember that I took my share of licks for defending Ariane--before my opinion soured of the way the business is run. I made myself look like a fool thinking that Ariane was better than it's turned out to be. And there seem to be too many strategically placed posts trying to gloss over the stink these types of business practices throw over the community. Ariane may be perfectly legal in its presentation, but its a very foul smelling presentation. You haven't traded some of the coorespondence some of us have with Bobbo over simple things like a fix for a model, or a request to post a repaint (that is, unless you are Bobbo). And how many people were lured to the website with promises of product, only to buy something else out of frustration when the promised product wasn't there. When I see self serving prose on the site like Toni points out, that makes buyers believe it is being recognized for some type of wonderful service, I'm going to be here to remind people that car dealers share the same "awards" to make people think they are in it for the customer.Ariane's words about "promises" the customers made--sounds like the words of someone who thinks the customer a chess piece to be played. My question--has Ariane fixed the '300"? No. The spoilers still don't animate right, and the textures still have alignment problems. But that doesn't stop Ariane from promoting other products, doesn't it? But your ears were shut when you added your wisdom to the thread.... If you want the thread to die, you best stay out of it. Or at least tell us all why we should think Ariane is so deserving of praise, rather than take a shot at those that share there opinions. And I wouldn't be here in these threads, were they not pulled. I am not in here being obscene, insulting those in the threads, in spite of insults like yours. I am stating opinions. Not as someone with a position against Ariane, but as an Ariane customer who wants the business that took my money to have an honest discussion about how to deliver the promise the 737 project is to the community.

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Good one, John! You had me going until I read this: "And how many people were lured to the website with promises of product, only to buy something else out of frustration when the promised product wasn't there.":-xxrotflmao:-xxrotflmao:-xxrotflmaoActually I wasn't thinking of you. If you search the recent posts of some, a high percentage deal with the subject of Ariane and nothing else. It does seem to border on obsession. Criticism is one thing, but I hate to see these pages used to further a vendetta. Whatever their faults Ariane do seem to have satisfied customers.Whatever. Personally my kink is GA, so I don't care much--unless, unless, unless....MOGHDAD = BOBBO?????:-bat

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MoghdadIf you weren't thinking of John specifically, I can only assume you're thinking of me and I make no apologies for any of my remarks regarding Ariane.To suggest that this is some sort of vendetta however is ludicrous! It couldn't be further from the truth.This is all about exposing bad practices to the newer members of the community in the hope that their buying decisions can be informed ones, rather than purely based on 'iffy' marketing practices, broken promises, hype and customer contempt.Ariane has a reputation which is self-earned and richly deserved. The history of this 'business' and the person behind it speaks for itself and tomes have been written about it. (A search here at Avsim both on the front page and through the forums will enlighten those interested in the background).Sure, Ariane does have some satisfied customers and I'm happy for them. I also think their 737 model is quite pretty (although the newly-released freeware FFX 737NG with free repaints will no doubt give them a 'good run for their money'). But IMHO, that will never excuse the hype that Ariane use to 'suck people in', or the threats made to anyone who dares to question them or their practices.The day Ariane act as a real business should (IMO), by publically stating who they really are, where they are, issue support telephone numbers (or indeed any telephone numbers to contact them in person), and stop hiding behind ficticious personas like 'Bob', then 'Bobbo' and now 'Nev' and review their 'marketing', that'll be the day this 'close to obsession' as you call it stops...Toni.

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When I started reading this topic, I knew in what it would end. A personal affair between a few people and Bobbo. The fact you like the product or not is a personal item. The forum is THE place to discuss this. What I see is the Ariane products are discussed very much in very many topics. Other publishers are more lucky. They are never discussed here on the forum. I wonder why this is. Is it because some people fighting a personal "war" with Arinae, Bobbo, PT or whatever? Why is the very bad product of Flightsoft not that many discussed? Bad support too. I never get a reaction on e-mails to them about their product Fly to Hawaii for FS2002. Some years ago their product Tribute to the DC10 came out. A very, very good rendition of the DC10. I liked it right from the paper. I bought it and flew it very often with a lot of pleasure. I got FS2000. I was very happy with the announcemnet of Flightsoft they "upgraded" the product for FS2000. I had to buy it again, full price, getting the rebate would cost me more as the rebate was. That was the time I got very disappointed about the product. A new name, but the aircraft models still the same. No upgrade, just animated with the excelent Abacus Aircraft Animator. Just check the mdl file and you even find the line about this version is not intended for commercial use (or something like this line). I dropped the DC10 from Flightsoft and started flying the FFG models. When the "Complete new FS2002 version" of Fly to... came out, I hoped it was completely new, but it is excactly the same as the first Tribute package. The Tribute package had a lot of liveries. Fly to.. hasn't. You have to buy the other liveries. Again a full products price. It is 12 sided round. I can go on about this. (Yes I am still very disappointed about this, I mailed about it to Flightsoft but never get an e-mail in return.)I spend

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TinoI don't think you're correct in your suggestion that other publishers are hardly ever discussed whilst Ariane seems to be a 'hot' topic.If you go through the threads and archives, you'll find that very many people have voiced their displeasure when products and developers/publishers, particularly commercial ones, have upset them.Of course I cannot speak for others, but what upsets me more than anything else about Ariane is the extreme lengths used to mask their identity, whereabouts etc. There is something bizarre about it and at the least, suggests 'something fishy'. After all, if you've nothing to hide, why hide?The same cannot be said of any other FS publisher to the best of my knowledge. They all have contact details, answer in their real names, have real addresses etc. and are completely open and honest (usually) in their dealings with their customers. You may not like what they say, or have issues with them or their products, but they don't 'hide behind a rock'. And 99 times out 100, they come out and discuss the issues and at least 'face their critics'.Ariane is the exception to this. They never answer questions raised here (and on other forums), don't reveal their real names, hide their trading address & phone numbers etc. whilst at the same time use questionable tactics to persuade you to spend your money with them.It's that basic underlying dishonesty, coupled with a history of unanswered questions and plethora of complaints, that some (including myself) find so irratating.I have no doubts whatsoever that if other publishers treated their buying public in a similar way, they too would elicit the same comments from the community they rely on for their very existence.Toni.

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Toni,For God's sake, stick a sock in it . . . pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze fine something else to harp about! I'm not even taking up for A or PT or whatever, just please find another subject! This one is getting really long in the tooth.Clay

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Isn't that the job of the moderators to tell someone to stick a sock in it, if they find something off topic or offensive? Just wondering.Todd

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>Toni,>>For God's sake, stick a sock in it . . . pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze>fine something else to harp about! I'm not even taking up for>A or PT or whatever, just please find another subject! This>one is getting really long in the tooth.>>Clay>I agree!!!!!!!!Talk about beating a dead horse!Not to mention BORING.

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Well, you would think so, my friend . . . as everything else get's locked or edited. LOL. Perhaps, being Sunday they have the day off.In any event, I, as does Toni and everyone else in a free world, has the right to thier opinion . . . and although I may not agree, I will defend his right to speak his mind . . .no matter what I feel about the content.Regards to allClay

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