This is the type of piracy prevention that would turn me off and I would steer clear of any developer using this method. IMHO it's just way too intrusive to the legitimate customer. I don't want you tracking how often I use a program or addon. Also I think your system would be "reactive" and not "proactive" which would solve nothing as you would deactivate someones account AFTER the suspected piracy has already taken place.I think you might be missing the real point. Dis-satisfied customers "might" be pirates (or thieves whatever you want to call them). Either way pirates are going to be pirates regardless of whether they are satisfied or not. But there could be, and I'm speculating here, a small number of previously legitimate customers who are tired of being abused (in various ways beyond the scope of this topic) by "some" developers.Note: After re-reading my own statement above some may read into that as I am a pirate/thief or a unhappy customer. I am not a pirate so lets not go there, but there have been times where a developer has pushed my patience too far, regardless though I did not pirate or steal any of their software.And speaking about being pushed too far, although it is off-topic but has been mentioned above in this topic and in that other thread, to the developers who are tired of the piracy and the other issues you have mentioned that would have you close shop, I have to say then that you have lost your passion for creating add-ons and that it would and should be time to move on to other things. If you no longer enjoy what you do for whatever the reason then I'm not so sure you're doing your customers any favors by staying in business. Consider the situation where a customer may ask a simple question and the developer may be having a bad day (or month or year) and snaps at the customer for no real reason. The customer is NOT always right BUT the customer NEVER forgets a bad experience.Finally I am shocked at those of you who state that you do not want to see the days of freeware return. That baffles my mind! Freeware regardless of the quality is something done out of passion and not the need to eat, drink, and be merry (read as survive). As I already said, passion is something that a lot of developers have truly lost, and yes I understand your reasons for the loss of passion.Just my food for thought and to sum up my position on the issue, any form piracy/theft is wrong. Todd

Todd-I have only ever done freeware.. I will never do it again. The time commitment, the unending emails (my imho best freeware project was done in 2002-I still get email requests for support even today-I always answer with detailed reply's- I have never gotten one thanks from anyone-really!..). Today there is even a greater complexity that goes beyond many skills (at least mine) to make a high quality add in for fsx.Let's face it-doing freeware now is not like it was 15 years ago. There are some that will do it and all the power to them.But if you expect fs to continue on the basis of that I just don't think it is realistic.As far as losing the passion-I have gotten private emails from 3 major developers in the last couple weeks who have stated exactly that.Who blames them? (I am sure some do...) . So when we speak of abuse-let's look where it is -and who is going to be hurting in the long term...When the commercial developers drop out-who is going to carry on. When the freeware guys eventually drop out who is going to be hurting?Ms already dropped out-is that not an indication of what is going on?

Hello,Ask (just come to mind) Mr Milton Shupe how make freewares :)It's some other names you know surely who can say the same.(Piglet from SOH .. etc..)And allway great support and big thank's from me :)Regards.Gus.

Hello,Ask (just come to mind) Mr Milton Shupe how make freewares :)It's some other names you know surely who can say the same.(Piglet from SOH .. etc..)And allway great support and big thank's from me :)Regards.Gus.

Milton Shupe's stuff is great.Good luck!

Hello,Ask (just come to mind) Mr Milton Shupe how make freewares :)It's some other names you know surely who can say the same.(Piglet from SOH .. etc..)And allway great support and big thank's from me :)Regards.Gus.

First off THANKS GEOF. There's your first one. Moving on.........I'm a huge fan of Milton's work, especially the Beech 18, I've also spent a lot of time in some of Tim Conrad's work. But I can't imagine getting the system depth of the LDS 767 or the graphics quality of the CS products from freeware, at least not enough to provide for all types of simmers. I'm not confident that the work of RXP, PMDG, LDS, Carenado, Eaglesoft, etc, etc could be consistantly matched by freeware.

I still use SGA, Eric Cantu, HNAC and iFDG airplanes. They still hold their grounds in FSX. It is a shame they are not around anymore. But I can't blame them either with the present atmosphere of the Flight Sim. World.But there are new players trying and doing their best. Names withhold to protect the innocents as the old saying goes.I thank and salute the old and the new freeware developers. Good guys all.Cheers,MAB

This is the type of piracy prevention that would turn me off and I would steer clear of any developer using this method. IMHO it's just way too intrusive to the legitimate customer. I don't want you tracking how often I use a program or addon. Also I think your system would be "reactive" and not "proactive" which would solve nothing as you would deactivate someones account AFTER the suspected piracy has already taken place.Todd

I see what your getting at. Though it's not uncommon at all for websites and businness to keep track of statistical information like this in their databases, but perhaps in this case your probably right, it might be a little bit to invasive and a turn off for the user. Your statement is true and I see what you are trying to say, passion is what started the flight sim community and that

I'm going to discuss an Eaglesoft product... without the desired intent of promotion... just bear with me. :(Eaglesoft's about to beta test their Navdata Service Upgrade for the Citation X 2.0. It's autopilot code, which completely replaces the FS autopilot is over 20,000 lines of custom code. That's not freeware level, by any stretch of the imagination. The total gauge work is over 90,000 lines of code. That's not freeware level. While there are freeware Citation X's... they are not nearly as complex in systems modeling.I scan all the pirate locations, it's easy enough to do. The Citation X 2.0 was available for download within 48hrs of it's initial release. They've even been good enough to ensure the downloads are the current release, including all patches and bug fixes.Given that, I doubt piracy has anything to do with unhappy customers at all. Since the only way to obtain the Citation X 2.0 is via the Flight1 wrapper, the person who placed it online for download was a customer.

On the subject of requiring online authentication every time a user loads an addon product, I believe Umberto has it 100% correct. It's wrong to assume that everyone has Internet access all of the time. In my particular case I work at sea. My work pattern is four months on ship followed by three months on leave. When I am on ship I don't have Internet access, so for me at least buying a product that I cannot use for four months at a time is not something I am going to do.I am sure there are many others like me who do not always have Internet access on their FS computer.Nick

Todd-I have only ever done freeware.. I will never do it again. The time commitment, the unending emails (my imho best freeware project was done in 2002-I still get email requests for support even today-I always answer with detailed reply's- I have never gotten one thanks from anyone-really!..).Today there is even a greater complexity that goes beyond many skills (at least mine) to make a high quality add in for fsx.Let's face it-doing freeware now is not like it was 15 years ago. There are some that will do it and all the power to them.But if you expect fs to continue on the basis of that I just don't think it is realistic.As far as losing the passion-I have gotten private emails from 3 major developers in the last couple weeks who have stated exactly that.Who blames them? (I am sure some do...) . So when we speak of abuse-let's look where it is -and who is going to be hurting in the long term...When the commercial developers drop out-who is going to carry on. When the freeware guys eventually drop out who is going to be hurting?Ms already dropped out-is that not an indication of what is going on?

Geof:I respect your opinions but they are just that, your opinions. I do not share your view. Why do you feel that Flight Simulator will die just because some payware developers cease their work? Why do you (and others) paint a very near doomsday Flight Sim ending just because some developers would cease to exist? Why? I for one would be happy with what I have now. I don't want any developers to stop making addons but if they do so who's fault is that? Mine? No way! Like I said if they are fed up then we all need to move on. It won't be the end of the world and it won't be the end of the Flight Simulator world either.Are you aware that Microsoft released another simulator back in June 2001 (that's over 8 years ago) called Train Simulator? Are you aware that it's user base and community is WAY smaller than Flight Simulator yet although some Train Sim addon developers have moved on, the freeware scene is doing very well and releasing quality work. Now I grant you we aren't talking detailed systems modeling but the sim and community despite it's age is doing just fine. Your opinions are simply biased and based on you personally knowing certain developers. I do not personally know any Flight Sim developers and can give an opinion from the just a customer who has purchased addons. I also know that Flight Simulator will remain on my computer and will be used regularly if every developer was to cease to exist tomorrow! I am not an addon junkie and I do not NEED to buy something just to keep me flying. I would continue to use Flight Simulator because I have STILL have a PASSION for virtual flying!Also one other thing I would like to ask. If developers are fed up and on the verge of closing shop (again this is a decision within their hearts and minds), Geof based on your post(s) what do you want me to do? Buy two of every addon? Do a eliminate piracy dance? Pay for therapy so they can feel good again about making Flight Sim addons? Worship the computer chairs that they sit on when making the addons? What is a legitimate customer supposed to do?You seem to be pleading the developers case but you are doing so to the wrong group of people. And BTW you stated:

So when we speak of abuse-let's look where it is -and who is going to be hurting in the long term...

So it's the legitimate user/customer who is the cause of the poor state of the Flight Sim community today? Geof when I used the word "abuse" you had no clue what I meant (and will not comment on in this thread) yet it sounds like you are saying we are the ones abusing the developers. It's always our fault and we are always the bad guys.Both sides would initially be hurt if your doomsday scenario comes true but one side will recover and move on. Stop painting the ridiculous picture that the Flight Sim world is ending! There is no truth behind that because you cannot speak for everyone.Todd

The problem with many anti pirate scemes is, IMO, they hit the legitimate users harder than those who uses pirated stuff. It's the legitimate users who pay for the development etc of the protection. If you add a stricht activation sceme to the equation, which make using the software a hazzle, the balance is tipped even more, since the pirate users doesn't have that hazzle. I'm allways paying for my software, but Having been through 2 major computer crashes in the last year, both requiring complete reinstall of everything, I have learned what hazzle the anti pirate stuff can be for a legitimate user. Frankly I can understand why some would be tempted to use pirated software on that account. I'm a very law abiding and used the correct channels, and it took weeks for getting a resonable amount of software up and running. I choosed to skip some stuff since it is to much trouble, and some I even had to buy some of it again(not flightsim stuff though).I fully understand software developers need to protect their software, just be aware of the trouble you can put on the legitimate user.

"Why do you feel that Flight Simulator will die just because some payware developers cease their work?"I'll answer as simply as I can. I believe a complex set of factors is dragging simming down. It isn't only about developers and their attitudes. I don't believe Flight sim will die because some payware developers cease-I think it is one of many complex factors that is bringing it down.HistoryMany companies have tried to make flight sims for the general public-(Fly, Pro Pilot, Flight Unlimited, Falcon etc.) and with the exception of Xplane they have all failed. MS was always the anchor-it is not anymore. I personally do not hold much hope of what MS has in mind for the future being much that would interest our community-I hope I am wrong. Fsx/fs9 may last a while-but when eventually MS pulls jepp weather support, activation etc. there will be an end.1) Present Developers are deserting the community or are strongly thinking about it. That is is a fact. Will there be those to replace them?-possibly-but I don't think this is good sign-especially since some of those bailing are some of the developers that have been the backbone of the community from the beginning.2) Piracy is partially responsible for this, expectations of simmers for a product of the highest standards at a price less than the sim, the huge number of hours required to create such a product which therefore can't be put out at a price less than the sim strongly figure in. But aside from this-all the developers I talk to express that is the rude and hostile attitude towards them by some, simply because they are developers (they don't mind complaints of flaws in their products) is driving them away. They are also enthusisiasts too, and such behavior makes them unenthusiastic. Please stress the some as I don't believe the majority of us are that way. When there are markets that are willing to pay what a product is worth, that are appreciative, what incentive is there for developers to stay here? These markets do exist.3) The economy is bad-enough said here-it has an effect on everything.4) ...and now the part care about. To save flight simming I feel the community needs to go back to a more can do, get involved, do what it takes, positive kind of spirit like it used to be-especially now that the anchor of MS has gone....as an example - this thread. Instead of telling developers that pirating doesn't matter, or it is a fact of life, or isn't losing them profits when we really don't know the facts, perhaps we should be contributing to finding a solution to dealing with the problem?If my next door neighbor's house is robbed, I guess I could tell them that is just part of todays' world, that they really didn't lose anything anyway, and by the way the locks they had on their doors made me not want to visit them, and perhaps add a touch of anger in my tone because they deserve it.Or I could offer moral support, and try to help them secure their house for the future, because we all care about the neighborhood, and it is all of our interests to make it a nice place to live.So in the bigger scheme of things, imho the second attitude is the one needed right now to save flight simming. I have been simming for nearly 30 years, I love it, am passionate about it and want it to survive.

Geof:I respect your opinions but they are just that, your opinions. I do not share your view. Why do you feel that Flight Simulator will die just because some payware developers cease their work? Why do you (and others) paint a very near doomsday Flight Sim ending just because some developers would cease to exist? Why? I for one would be happy with what I have now. I don't want any developers to stop making addons but if they do so who's fault is that? Mine? No way! Like I said if they are fed up then we all need to move on. It won't be the end of the world and it won't be the end of the Flight Simulator world either.Are you aware that Microsoft released another simulator back in June 2001 (that's over 8 years ago) called Train Simulator? Are you aware that it's user base and community is WAY smaller than Flight Simulator yet although some Train Sim addon developers have moved on, the freeware scene is doing very well and releasing quality work. Now I grant you we aren't talking detailed systems modeling but the sim and community despite it's age is doing just fine. Your opinions are simply biased and based on you personally knowing certain developers. I do not personally know any Flight Sim developers and can give an opinion from the just a customer who has purchased addons. I also know that Flight Simulator will remain on my computer and will be used regularly if every developer was to cease to exist tomorrow! I am not an addon junkie and I do not NEED to buy something just to keep me flying. I would continue to use Flight Simulator because I have STILL have a PASSION for virtual flying!Also one other thing I would like to ask. If developers are fed up and on the verge of closing shop (again this is a decision within their hearts and minds), Geof based on your post(s) what do you want me to do? Buy two of every addon? Do a eliminate piracy dance? Pay for therapy so they can feel good again about making Flight Sim addons? Worship the computer chairs that they sit on when making the addons? What is a legitimate customer supposed to do?You seem to be pleading the developers case but you are doing so to the wrong group of people. And BTW you stated:So it's the legitimate user/customer who is the cause of the poor state of the Flight Sim community today? Geof when I used the word "abuse" you had no clue what I meant (and will not comment on in this thread) yet it sounds like you are saying we are the ones abusing the developers. It's always our fault and we are always the bad guys.Both sides would initially be hurt if your doomsday scenario comes true but one side will recover and move on. Stop painting the ridiculous picture that the Flight Sim world is ending! There is no truth behind that because you cannot speak for everyone.Todd

Perhaps "severe decline" as opposed to "demise" of the FS Community would be more accurate to those who do not seem to recognize the issues as outlined.If every commercial FS Developer stopped today their existing products would remain commercially available absent the piracy issue.The eventual outcome would be that only freeware would drive the hobby forward unless new commercial developers stepped up with stringent anti piracy schemas.Currently there are stringent measures being taken by commercial FS Developers to protect their interests and we expect that to expand and continue until theft is no longer a viable option for FS Users.The question of commercial developers "abusing" customers is ludicrous.If the owners of a brick and mortor retail outlet were subjected to the customer "abuse" that commercial FS Developers are subject to the "abusive" customers would find themselves summarily removed from the premises.Let's keep it real boys and girls. :(

The problem with many anti pirate scemes is, IMO, they hit the legitimate users harder than those who uses pirated stuff. It's the legitimate users who pay for the development etc of the protection. If you add a stricht activation sceme to the equation, which make using the software a hazzle, the balance is tipped even more, since the pirate users doesn't have that hazzle. I'm allways paying for my software, but Having been through 2 major computer crashes in the last year, both requiring complete reinstall of everything, I have learned what hazzle the anti pirate stuff can be for a legitimate user. Frankly I can understand why some would be tempted to use pirated software on that account. I'm a very law abiding and used the correct channels, and it took weeks for getting a resonable amount of software up and running. I choosed to skip some stuff since it is to much trouble, and some I even had to buy some of it again(not flightsim stuff though).I fully understand software developers need to protect their software, just be aware of the trouble you can put on the legitimate user.

Outside the Virtual world the same holds true.Do you recognize the fact that prices you pay at retail contain an increase to offset loss due to the theft? Do you recognize the fact that your retail costs are increased by factor X to cover retail costs of tamperproof packaging, electronic dongles on clothing items, etc?Face the facts. Criminal theft already increases costs to consumers as every legitimate businessman can easily attest. :(

Outside the Virtual world the same holds true.Do you recognize the fact that prices you pay at retail contain an increase to offset loss due to the theft? Do you recognize the fact that your retail costs are increased by factor X to cover retail costs of tamperproof packaging, electronic dongles on clothing items, etc?Face the facts. Criminal theft already increases costs to consumers as every legitimate businessman can easily attest. :(

Ron, I'm aware of the fact. I do understand the need to protect the software as well as the local stores needs to take actions to minimize shop lifting( or compensate by higher prices). I'm not that good at expressing my opinion in english, but what I was trying to convey is the need for a reasonable balance in the matter.-Peter

Ron, I'm aware of the fact. I do understand the need to protect the software as well as the local stores needs to take actions to minimize shop lifting( or compensate by higher prices). I'm not that good at expressing my opinion in english, but what I was trying to convey is the need for a reasonable balance in the matter.-Peter

Peter, no developer in his right mind wishes to inconvenience his customer base...That is why I've repeatedly stated that Legitimate Users would not be effected by a schema which simply renders products unusable in the event of a hack attempt since Legitmate Users do not attempt to hack their own software. :(