Then to legitimately offset cost of production for an aircraft addon... the price for a $50 addon just doubled. After all, unlike something like an OS... we're talking a rather limited production run of CDs, boxes, paperwork, etc. Much, much more expensive to produce because of lowered quantities.

Ed- for curiosity, I just checked the prices at Flight One. For the Pilatus PC12 FSX - Download: $32.95, CD: $34.95+mailingStrikes me that $2 extra plus mailing is a bargain since there is no activation frustration nor problems in the event of crashes or new hardware etc. And a saving in labour & frustration for the developer trying to respond to users who need activation or reactivation. Alex Reid

Let me welcome everyone coming from the locked thread and explain why we've merged here. This thread, in all its glorious, fairly civilized 12 pages is already addressing the topic of piracy on a number of levels and is being heavily moderated by myself and others. Everyone is free to quote from the previous thread and respond here. The now locked thread may not seem to have gotten out of control, but what most people do not get to see is the many posts failing to abide by the AVSIM forums terms of use, including vile personal attacks that had to be removed. This thread gladly welcomes a continuation of the locked thread. There simply comes a time when it is more suitable to lock a thread than to have to consistantly monitor it on a minute by minute basis, which is not particularly easy to do with a limited all volunteer force. In this case nobody is being silenced from voicing there opinion within the scope of the AVSIM forums terms of use, but is rather simply asked to bring there posts here instead.

I'm not even going to ask how you know that but I don't think that is the case. From what I've read here and elsewhere it's my understanding that most of the torrents are 'ripped' files straight from the subdirectories of FSX. The addon has already been unpacked and installed by a legit purchaser (like Johnny) and the torrent files are simply the Aircraft, Gauges, Effects files etc which can be copied over - no installation or 'crack' is neccesary.edit - as a response to Ron - If you are convinced that you can come up with an unbreakable system then, honestly, you have my support and good luck to you but even with the budget and resources that Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and the whole Hollywood and Music industry have - nobody has been able to do it yet!

No one can make it unbreakable. However, I can assure you it can be made extremely difficult.As far as how the files are redistributed... it all depends on the protection system.Regarding 'Johnny'... there's a way to deal with that. I won't go into any details on how... sorry, nunyabizness :(

Ed- for curiosity, I just checked the prices at Flight One. For the Pilatus PC12 FSX - Download: $32.95, CD: $34.95+mailingStrikes me that $2 extra plus mailing is a bargain since there is no activation frustration nor problems in the event of crashes or new hardware etc. And a saving in labour & frustration for the developer trying to respond to users who need activation or reactivation. Alex Reid

Well, they're taking a loss doing it... and that's their choice. Doesn't mean I have to, now does it?

I guess you'll have to find a way to walk that tightrope of making it extremely difficult to install illegally but still straight forward enough to install (and reinstall again and again on replacement hardware without begging for permission) legitimately. As for Johnny, I know some of the more unenlightened members of the community would have these children shot without asking any questions but I vote we hire all the little Johnny's in the world and get them to come up with ways to beat this (maybe rough them up a little if they refuse). Moral judgements aside though, some of them must be incredibly clever and should be put to good use and given gainful employment somehow. Actually I bet the Pentagon is full of them :(

I guess my only ? is was why are we dragged into the theft part as a buyer? thats all I really wanted to know. I mean I buy things off Direct 2 drive EA never have I had this done it was just a bit of a shock. And I will add I think EA or D2D may have their products stolen 2 they just don't get in my face about when I go to their site. I am glad the thread was locked I never start a thread to fight I just want answers like most others.Oh I want to add I like the way Flight one does it you get a little app that downloads the software you want to buy they email you recipts. I have found it a real pleasure to buy from them also.

I'm not even going to ask how you know that but I don't think that is the case. From what I've read here and elsewhere it's my understanding that most of the torrents are 'ripped' files straight from the subdirectories of FSX. The addon has already been unpacked and installed by a legit purchaser (like Johnny) and the torrent files are simply the Aircraft, Gauges, Effects files etc which can be copied over - no installation or 'crack' is neccesary.edit - as a response to Ron - If you are convinced that you can come up with an unbreakable system then, honestly, you have my support and good luck to you but even with the budget and resources that Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and the whole Hollywood and Music industry have - nobody has been able to do it yet!

You are misinformed on the first and second points.The best answer is that some are partial cracked downloads while others are not.We will not go further on the "mechanics" of what is being done.I've stated that a new paradigm has and is being discussed among FS Developers and is not subject to massive budgetary concerns in order to be implimented...I've outlined the goal of the new paradigm which is to stop or severely inhibit the paractice of theft and/or redistribution of stolen software while not effecting legimate users or their hardware.The actual "mechanics" or techniques used will, over the near and long term, pass an effectivness test or be scrapped.I'm simply stating that there is hope for FS Developers and their honest and upright customer base. :(

--------Well, they're taking a loss doing it... and that's their choice. Doesn't mean I have to, now does it?

I wonder if Simulation4U is taking a loss on Rise Of Flight- their prices: CD 39.99 EUR, DownLoad 37.95 EUR.Seems to me the extra 3 or 4 dollars plus mailing for CD is a real bargain when weighed against the hassle of downloading/activation/reactivation etc.Alex Reid

I wonder if Simulation4U is taking a loss on Rise Of Flight- their prices: CD 39.99 EUR, DownLoad 37.95 EUR.Seems to me the extra 3 or 4 dollars plus mailing for CD is a real bargain when weighed against the hassle of downloading/activation/reactivation etc.

Wrong example: Rise of Flight on CD has exactly the *same* requirements of a permanent internet connection, not just to be activated, but to be used. The only thing the CD will save you, is the time needed to download the installer.

It is our understanding that CD Versions of FS Software are not cost effective and that they will eventully not be offered by at least some software houses. :(

FIRST: I have throughly enjoyed reading and watching this post. Thanks for everyones opinions.SECOND: I see a lot of the posts referencing CD/BOX Software. I have noticed that the software section at Wal-Mart or Bestbuy has shrunk very much in the past couple of years. I am afraid that one day there will be NO CD/Box PC software. THIRD: I have several clients that have software that requires a "dongle" or "Key" to use. Would this not be a possible solution to the problem? (please dont yell at me for this question, :(:) I am a hardware guy not a software developer)

Wrong example: Rise of Flight on CD has exactly the *same* requirements of a permanent internet connection, not just to be activated, but to be used. The only thing the CD will save you, is the time needed to download the installer.

But the point was that the added cost of issuing software on CD (the installer in this case) rather than via download, is only 2 EUR+ postage.That is- marketing software via download is not a great deal cheaper than on CD/DVD.If the customer had to provide a serial # ID for his computer or O/S when ordering, this could be written into the CD-DVD as part of the order fulfillment by the supplier- and that disc, via its internal security coding would then only work on that specific computer. Thus copying such a disc, to use on another computer, could be made to pose a considerable challenge for the pirates. EVERY disc would be unique. Or am I missing something?Sure the customer would have to wait a few days for FedEx- is that a problem?Alex Reid

Hello,

THIRD: I have several clients that have software that requires a "dongle" or "Key" to use. Would this not be a possible solution to the problem? (please dont yell at me for this question, :) I am a hardware guy not a software developer)

The dongle is a very "elegant" hardware solution and it's very effective for a "whole game" like it's used by the game Steelbeasts.Unfortunately methink it's not apply for addon's for FSDo you imagine how many dongles will be need to plug when you use differents addon's ? :)

Thus copying such a disc, to use on another computer, could be made to pose a considerable challenge for the pirates

And for the customer :)But .. no probs .. your PC never fail .... and you never upgrade :)Regards.Gus.

Hello,The dongle is a very "elegant" hardware solution and it's very effective for a "whole game" like it's used by the game Steelbeasts.Unfortunately methink it's not apply for addon's for FSDo you imagine how many dongles will be need to plug when you use differents addon's ? :)And for the customer :)But .. no probs .. your PC never fail .... and you never upgrade :)Regards.Gus.

I believe it is possible to have multiple keys on a single usb dongle. I think the Pace iLok is an example and is used in the music software industry to store software keys for plugins for programs such as Cubase and ProTools. For the Flightsim situation FSX would = Cubase or ProTools (the host application) and aircraft and scenery addons would = effects and instrument plugins. All the keys for the various effects and instrument plugins are stored on one USB key. I don't know how useful easy it would be to get this to work with FSX though as it may involve some coding of the host application. Something for FS11 perhaps (still hoping there will be an FS11, fingers crossed)?

-----------And for the customer :)But .. no probs .. your PC never fail .... and you never upgrade :)Regards.Gus.

Gus- No problemo! "My warranty" clearly states that "In the event of a total PC crash or an upgrade to a new PC or OS within 2 years of purchase, the software supplier will provide a replacement CD/DVD with new security code, upon request and payment of a service fee of 50% of the original cost- plus postage or delivery charges." Cheers Alex Reid(Even though the tires on your new car have a full warranty, the reimbursement for a failure will be prorated by the amount of wear on the tire. A 50% discount on replacement software seems fair to me.)

Ed- for curiosity, I just checked the prices at Flight One. For the Pilatus PC12 FSX - Download: $32.95, CD: $34.95+mailingStrikes me that $2 extra plus mailing is a bargain since there is no activation frustration nor problems in the event of crashes or new hardware etc. And a saving in labour & frustration for the developer trying to respond to users who need activation or reactivation. Alex Reid

so why not just validate my install with some dll or whatever, so I don't have to bother again?the burning to disk , handling , stocking disks and boxes, . that doesn't make sence , No argument with you , it the seller in fact why not let me burn an ISO........ bada bingI mean if I have been validated ..... the file I downloaded is validated as authentic,, then whats the whoha all about?it just makes no sence at all , as spock says it best. thats not logical Captianagain the argument goes to the developersbtw if the answer is "cauz'en we say so" .... puh'leezzzzalsothere is only one way to stop piracy,. and everyone knows the answer...