... many analyze this situation with the idea that piracy sales are not really lost sales ....... hopelessly old fashioned at age 51 ...

If not countered with things like the Flight1 Wrapper, piracy really does significantly erode developer revenue. As for being hopelessly old fashioned, I don't think you are, but try to cut the developer community some slack. There are plenty of developers of high integrity like Ron who understand that good quality products that people actually want are the key to business success.There is nothing wrong with making money but, as you suggested, it should come as a byproduct of Doing The Right Thing. Not all developers are good businessmen but I don't think that many of them are other than well-intended. There are far easier ways of ripping people off than by going to the trouble of creating a product to fleece them.

Mike, I've ammended my post which you've quoted to address the Hardware Question..please reread and edit your quote as well :(

If not countered with things like the Flight1 Wrapper, piracy really does significantly erode developer revenue. As for being hopelessly old fashioned, I don't think you are, but try to cut the developer community some slack. There are plenty of developers of high integrity like Ron who understand that good quality products that people actually want are the key to business success.There is nothing wrong with making money but, as you suggested, it should come as a byproduct of Doing The Right Thing. Not all developers are good businessmen but I don't think that many of them are other than well-intended. There are far easier ways of ripping people off than by going to the trouble of creating a product to fleece them.

Mike-Where have I not cut the developer community slack?I have been a freeware developer in the past-and the problems have been much the same.

Hi Ron. I'd like to thank you for participating in the discussion. I've been doing my best to remind everyone to remain civilized, and I hope it stays that way because I believe we need to get all points of view on the table. In another forum you answered a few questions of mine regarding piracy, thank you by the way, and now I have another. I've noticed that with only one exception, everybody I know in the business is very tight lipped when I ask about the affect of piracy. I don't expect hard data, but I'm curious why that is. Please keep in mind that I don't doubt pirating has an impact, nor do I feel that your financials are any of my business, I'm just wondering if there is any way to better explain how much of an affect pirating has and how you've come to that conclusion. I still believe that some good could come of that. Sometimes a horror story can affect someone in a good way.

Jeremy, I'll attempt to answer your question but it will be brief...A. Business people are by nature extremely averse to discussing their numbers be they negative or positive. :( B. It is difficult, even for those who have "inside access", to accurately quantify loss due to theft.C. The reason for this is contained in answer A. above. :(

Mike, I've ammended my post which you've quoted to address the Hardware Question..please reread and edit your quote as well :(

Done.

Jeremy, I'll attempt to answer your question but it will be brief...A. Business people are by nature extremely averse to discussing their numbers be they negative or positive. :( B. It is difficult, even for those who have "inside access", to accurately quantify loss due to theft.C. The reason for this is contained in answer A. above. :(

Fair enough Ron, you never owed me an answer, but I appreciate what I got.

Mike-Where have I not cut the developer community slack?I have been a freeware developer in the past-and the problems have been much the same.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your remarks, Geofa ...You seemed to be suggesting that there is too much emphasis on money these days. Much as I admire freeware developers, it's a fact that the most complex addons can only be done by payware teams. In times past Ron and I had some conversation about what goes into the construction of an Eaglesoft aircraft and -- trust me -- the process ain't cheap.So while at some level I regret the passing of the Golden Age Of Freeware, the fact is that I haven't downloaded a freeware aircraft in more than a year, and in the past three years I've only downloaded four. In contrast I've bought probably two dozen payware aircraft along with many, many payware panels and utilities.That said, my favorite addon aircraft is freeware, extensively modified by yours truly for my own enjoyment. I fly it almost to the exclusion of all the payware I've bought.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your remarks, Geofa ...You seemed to be suggesting that there is too much emphasis on money these days. Much as I admire freeware developers, it's a fact that the most complex addons can only be done by payware teams. In times past Ron and I had some conversation about what goes into the construction of an Eaglesoft aircraft and -- trust me -- the process ain't cheap.So while at some level I regret the passing of the olden Age Of Freeware, the fact is that I haven't downloaded a freeware aircraft in more than a year, and in the past three years I've only downloaded four. In contrast I've bought probably two dozen payware aircraft along with many, many payware panels and utilities.That said, my favorite addon aircraft is freeware, extensively modified by yours truly for my own enjoyment. I fly it almost to the exclusion of all the payware I've bought.

My emphasis on money is that the rational of piracy is that there really is no loss of income to the developer as these are parties that would not buy anyway. The fact that it is wrong seems to have little bearing to the equation-at least to some.

Fair enough Ron, you never owed me an answer, but I appreciate what I got.

For discussion purposes only, why don't we go with the 50% pirated number? It's public information given that I'm not divulging who my friend is, and it's a plausible number with some support from the IT community. The number might be right or wrong but it's at least a definite peg on which hats can be hung.Later we could play What If but for now let's start with a stake in the ground.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxAlso, does anybody mind if I open a separate thread for the optimum pricing discussion when the time comes? It's really not a piracy issue, much more of a marketing issue.

For discussion purposes only, why don't we go with the 50% pirated number? It's public information given that I'm not divulging who my friend is, and it's a plausible number with some support from the IT community. The number might be right or wrong but it's at least a definite peg on which hats can be hung.Later we could play What If but for now let's start with a stake in the ground.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxAlso, does anybody mind if I open a separate thread for the optimum pricing discussion when the time comes? It's really not a piracy issue, much more of a marketing issue.

Okay Mike, I'll play along. Now teach me something.*EDIT* You're welcome to open a new thread on a new topic

My emphasis on money is that the rational of piracy is that there really is no loss of income to the developer as these are parties that would not buy anyway. The fact that it is wrong seems to have little bearing to the equation-at least to some.

There is no question that the world you and I grew up in (I'm 65) no longer exists. I agree with you -- all too many people today are guided not by right and wrong -- not by the inner voice of conscience -- but instead by what they think they can get away with.As somebody once said, Manners are not just what you do in public, they are also what you do when you're alone. So it is with Right and Wrong. The sense of shame is rapidly disappearing and ... ...... ... Oh boy, I really am going off topic. Sorry.

There is no question that the world you and I grew up in (I'm 65) no longer exists. I agree with you -- all too many people today are guided not by right and wrong -- not by the inner voice of conscience -- but instead by what they think they can get away with.As somebody once said, Manners are not just what you do in public, they are also what you do when you're alone. So it is with Right and Wrong. The sense of shame is rapidly disappearing and ... ...... ... Oh boy, I really am going off topic. Sorry.

Not really-imho that is the topic...

My emphasis on money is that the rational of piracy is that there really is no loss of income to the developer as these are parties that would not buy anyway. The fact that it is wrong seems to have little bearing to the equation-at least to some.

Geof, it is true that some believe the fallacy that that piracy presents no net loss to FS Developers with the lame claim that pirates will not become legitimate customers anyway...This is simply untrue but FS Developers are at a disadvantage when asked to quantify their loss for the reasons I've given to Jeremy above.As to the question of right vs wrong it would appear that reasoning has long since departed from those who've given themselves to theft and illegal distribution of stolen goods. :(

Okay Mike, I'll play along. Now teach me something.

Well, I wasn't expecting a challenge, I was just suggesting a baseline, but let me see what I can do ...Let's assume for discussion purposes that a developer will distribute through a publisher so that his only real efforts are -a- product development, -b- website development and operation and -c- customer support. This can all get fairly expensive fairly quickly, especially if we're talking about teams rather than individuals like me. If revenue gets seriously reduced by theft, a profit situation easily can turn into a loss -- which then cannot be sustained. If piracy were at the 5% level it could be ignored -- perhaps even viewed as word-of-mouth advertising -- and the effort to support illegitimate customers would not be noticed. But at the 50% level neither the revenue loss nor the support loss can be ignored, not to speak of a reduced ability to cover overhead.Am I making sense here? Or do you need more numbers?

Well, I wasn't expecting a challenge, I was just suggesting a baseline, but let me see what I can do ...Let's assume for discussion purposes that a developer will distribute through a publisher so that his only real efforts are -a- product development, -b- website development and operation and -c- customer support. This can all get fairly expensive fairly quickly, especially if we're talking about teams rather than individuals like me. If revenue gets seriously reduced by theft, a profit situation easily can turn into a loss -- which then cannot be sustained. If piracy were at the 5% level it could be ignored -- perhaps even viewed as word-of-mouth advertising -- and the effort to support illegitimate customers would not be noticed. But at the 50% level neither the revenue loss nor the support loss can be ignored, not to speak of a reduced ability to cover overhead.Am I making sense here? Or do you need more numbers?

You're making sense Mike, although with this theory so far even the top-notch product developers would suffer. I may have misunderstood, or I'm thinking of someone else, but I thought you didn't agree with that.