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Valmet Vinka why was it removed?

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Captain Trips wrote, "Why remove it from your hard-drive?"Because I wish to. I've had my intellectual property stolen in the past, and it's no fun. It is no different than someone taking food from my baby's mouth. And that really ####### me off!!jwenting wrote, "I can hardly believe that Mikko would steal someone elses work... He's been on the receiving end too often for that".I totally agree. The folks behind the Vinka are all well respected and very gifted. They don't have to steal anything from anybody.Hopefully this will be resolved soon. And anybody who learns of such a resolution (including Avsim), please post here of such. This airplane is simply too brilliant to pass up.

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>Methinks this one flies like the SF.260...>Takeoff roll is longer, & spin entry is different. More difficult to spin than the SF260, but then I don't know the actual spin charateristics of the Vinka ---- either. Maybe the real one doesn't spin as easily...L.Adamson

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Its very similar i guess.But I tried a spin.. it does not react near the same as the SF 260

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Sami,The files involved were not simply related to the flight model.Unique, original Copyrighted textures (specifically,light mapping methods) developed by one of FSD's designers were incorporated in that Vinka archive. This work was used and included in the released Vinka project files. We are advised by the author that the disguised, sanitised and modified original work was used "in error" during the Vinka development. These files were not simply spare textures accidentally included in the archive : they were functionally active files. Whilst I'm pleased it wasn't my flight model developments that were borrowed or used as a basis for duplication, in terms of the processes involved this is pretty much identical of experiences with Carenado - which seasoned readers will recall. There's hardly an occasion that we at FSD have NOT helped someone when asked. It's when liberties get taken with our work that our "buttons" get pushed......Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

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I find this vinka more easy to spin than the SF260...but it may just be me. I have rudder turned off because I dont have pedals and the Z axis on my thrustmaster hotas is broken (bad Potentiometer). So..Im sure it may just be my set up.In any case, Im sorry theres a dispute on this great bird. I have enjoyed what I have thus far. I had downloaded it before I knew there was a problem.Eric

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I am no longer part of RealAir Simulations but was when the idea of the first Spinning aircraft for MSFS was conceived and put into reality by RealAir Simulations.Rob Young put hundreds of hours into doing something which no one else had achieved in the history of MSFS and it was the "spin" which made the SF260 such a star and milestone in the MSFS world.To use someone elses hard graft and brilliance and to then claim it as your own is not just cheating but stealing from the company who created the idea.Stealing because if someone makes a copy then that copy will detract from the sales of the aircraft in question.I am no longer part of RealAir Simulations and as such not party to behind the scenes discussions on the airfile or FSDs textures but I would be stunned if anyone else had achieved a spin on their own merits knowing the huge effort required to achieve it in the first place.Peter

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Hi!I have one question. How can you explane that the Vinka wich was released with the AI-package (version 1, airfile dated 26.6.2002) does do the spin? It was released nearly half a year before Realair thing. The Realair does have much the same values in the .air file...???And by the way the Vinka was designed to combine the best sides of the SIAI-Marchetti SF.260 and Saab Safir...

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>So I guess this explains why some people say it feels like>the sf 260And Valmet Vinka was designeg to combine the good things in Saab Safir and SF 260.

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Hi,Well I for one can't afford to pay $25 dollars for every commerial aircraft like the SF260 I'd like to have. I'm glad I downloaded the Vinka before it was deleted. I'm having great fun flying it and I have no need to purchase the the SF260 now. I have never pirated anything before and have no reason to feel that I am participating in such now by thoroughly enjoying the Vinka. I have purchased three commercial aircraft add-ons so far, the FSD Seneca, the Flight1 C421, and the almighty Wilco PIC 767. In fact, I have paid far more for these combined add-ons than for MSFS2002 itself, a fairly typical situation for most simmers.This issue does beg the question though: can a company legally copyright mathmatical and flight dynamic components of .air files? It seems to me this is a gray area that would come more under a manifest destiny clause. Look at it this way, if it is illegal to duplicate .air file components or even use them as foundations to refine another flight physics model, can't Microsoft sue every designer out there for using MSFS2002 .air file structure itself as a starting point? Obviously, Microsoft embraced the concept of third party development a long time ago, quickly realising the marketing appeal of fostering a broad spectrum of add-ons for their flight simulator product. I guess in legal terms Microsoft could require commissions or licensing fees for every add-on ever made for Flight Simulator, heck Abacus Publishing just about does that now with their commercial EULA with FSDS 2. Microsoft realized that the add-on pipeline is and ever shall be both a major selling point and key to long term appeal for it's base product Flight Simulator. What made simming fun in the first place was the advent of online communication (remember the good old days of Compuserve before the internet), because we could all have a sense of community and share our innovations, projects and insights. In those days there were no such things as commerical add-ons, everything was freeware. Today it's not a secret that commercial entities actively compete with freeware designs. If an innovation is made by a commercial company it is secreted away and used to market a product as a selling point.How is this whole issue different from the original IBM PC clone phenomenon that but desktop computers into the hands of the masses rather than just select corporations?

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I agree with your grey area and difficult to claim copyright on things like fligth dynamics. However...If the Vinka has litarly copied parts of the SF260 air files you are at the moment pirating a part of Real Airs SF260. You even claim that you don't have to to purchase the the SF260 now making a great case for why Real Air would have to take action against the alleged pirating of their files.The grey area only comes into play when the SF260 and the Vika use the same general principles to get the spinning effect.In light of Steve Small's comments in this topic I removed the Vinka from my harddisk and I will wait untill the parties involved resolve the issues they have with the Valmet Vinka.

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>I am no longer part of RealAir Simulations and as such not>party to behind the scenes discussions on the airfile or FSDs>textures but I would be stunned if anyone else had achieved a>spin on their own merits knowing the huge effort required to>achieve it in the first place.Does this mean that Rob Young is the only man in the world, who can develop such a air file? Did he really do it all by himself or did he use information from internet?-Juha

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If we speak the truth the Vinka team didn't copy anything the one who copied something was the Realair team and that can be seen from the air files which, Kari who made the Vinka air file, shows at Fsnordic finnish discussion forum http://www.fsnordic.net/discussion/index.p...12141;start=120the ai vinka has that spin and the final vinka is based on it...there you can see that the vinka air file had that spin on it's file before the sf260! so anybody can't say that they copied anything, because they had the spin a lot before the sf260that's that and i think that the case is closed... and i wonder how Rob Young spend only few hundred hours making the spin when it took from Kari few thousand hours to make it...

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Juha In the whole history of MSFS no aircraft has ever spun and that is spanning over ten years.Rob spent hundreds of hours on the spin alone and nearly gave up the challenge as being impossible a number of times.He achieved it through "creative" flight modelling ie not doing things by the book or in the normal sense.I am not saying that the valmet spin wasnt achieved by its author.If that is the case then its author is indeed brilliant and a sucker for self punishment but having gone through the process of seeing Rob achieve the spin and almost failing i would be very surprised if the spin wasnt lifted from the SF260Peter

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I am certainly no expert in the field of anglo-saxon intellectual property law (hmmm, I'm no expert on greek intellectual property law as a a matter of fact...), however my understanding would be that this issue is more relevant to patent protection than to copyright protection. Perhaps this is an exaggeration, but i would think that the ability to simulate spins in a computer simulation program which does not allow so, constitutes a technological advancement, one which is normally protected by a patent. If that is the case then normally a patent would require registration of the said work with some kind of patent office, which I believe has not happened.If it were copyrighted work then there would be no need for registration for the protective rules of law to apply. In fact, one of the best forms of copyright protection of that lovely poem on dynamic blurries that you composed last night would be to put it in an envelope, seal it and mail it to yourself, making sure that the post office has stamped the date on it.In cocnlusion i think that RealAir's work is not that well protected from a legal standpoint. Having said that, the Marchetti is a favorite of mine and i believe that even if there was some copy paste involved, the positive effects of this debate might well overweigh the negative ones (in terms of public exposure of the company etc. not to mention damage to the reputation of another commercial add-on producer). Finaly, and taking into account my limited flying abilities as well, I can vouch that the said planes really don't behave all that similarly...Regards,

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>Rob spent hundreds of hours on the spin alone and nearly gave>up the challenge as being impossible a number of times.>He achieved it through "creative" flight modelling ie not>doing things by the book or in the normal sense.This all sounds to me like you feel that there's only one person in the world who could have possibly and even remotely invent this spin modeling into FS - and now anyone else who have made the same investigations / research / development is a pirate. Come on.. there are "a few" other people in the world too. ;) You also constantly say how much time has been spent for the dynamics of the SF260.. How can you know how much time has been spent on this aircraft? You just conclude that - "aah, our plane was the first to have the spin - it took quite much time to develop so in that case nobody has been able to create similar effects".But.. the authors have stated that they would more prefer to solve this matter in private, and issue possible statements after the things have been settled.Sami PuroFS Nordichttp://www.fsnordic.net/

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SamiIn private will have to be between RealAir and the developers not me because I am not part of RealAir anymore.The aircraft is a beauty and there has been a lot of detail attention.I am not saying that Rob is God when it comes to Flight dynamics but that up till now no one has ever achieved it.If it had been achieved on an earlier aircraft all the world would have known about it back then and what many claimed as a spin was infact some sort of induced spiral dive or control forced excuse for a spin.But at the end of the day I am sceptical and applaude the author if he did achieve a genuine spin before the SF260.....Bottom line is that it isnt my problem anymore ;-)CheersPeter

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>Does this mean that Rob Young is the only man in the world,>who can develop such a air file? Did he really do it all by>himself or did he use information from internet?Considering that data tables in the .air file are enumerated to six decimal point precision, the likelihood that two developers working independently would arrive at the same, exact values for their data points is deep within the realm of improbability...BillFounder and Director,Creative Recycling of Aircraft Partshttp://catholic-hymns.com/frbill/FS2002/images/fartslogo.jpg

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I will only write this reply to this thread, and I would suggest anyone else to not speculate things before it is sorted out by us and RealAir. Nobody else but Kari Virtanen and Rob Young really knows what is going on in the whole thing. Everything you say here is speculation and nothing but speculation.The FDE issue is already taken care by Kari Virtanen who made the Flight Dynamics for the Vinka and Rob Young from RealAir. That is all I can say about that thing. I don't understand a bit about Flight Dynamics and I have absolutely nothing to do with them. Was there a copyright violation or not, that will be stated to public as soon as the Vinka is back online... But like I said, I personally didn't have anything to do with the whole FDE issue...The "stolen" texture. Well, I have to admit that I have made an stupid error under a lot of pressure. I simply forgot to copy my own texture to the Vinka's texture folder. I had used FSD's, or who evers it was, texture while I was mapping the textures in gMax. I just needed something for reference. Then at the end of the project, when I made my own bitmap from real Vinka photographs, I had forgot to copy it to Vinka's FS-folder. That is simply my bad and I have alraedy fixed that for the new upload soon to come...Here are two screenshots of the texture that was the issue. In the first shot, you can seen FSD's light texture (green dotted line), which was used in gMax while mapping the bitmaps. And then you can see the other one, the photoreal texture, which is the one that I forgot to copy to right place. Now I will just leave a quick question to you. Do you really think I would risk my reputation by intentionally stealing FSD's handdrawn textures and releasing them as my own, when I have my own PHOTOREAL textures in use? Yeah, I don't think so either...http://www.fsnordic.net/discussion/attachm.../misc_vinka.jpg http://www.fsnordic.net/discussion/attachments/norm.jpgAnyway, I couldn't actually care less about this whole thing at the moment. My loved grand father died last night and my thoughts are somewhere else than in FS at the moment...Mikko http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/mmniemi/shots/banger.gif


Mikko Maliniemimmniemi@hotmail.com

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>Considering that data tables in the .air file are enumerated>to six decimal point precision, the likelihood that>two developers working independently would arrive at the same,>exact values for their data points is deep within the realm of>improbability...You are right, if the numbers truly are same. Hard to tell, because there are no hard evidence about assumed air file piracy.-Juha

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>>Considering that data tables in the .air file are>enumerated>>to six decimal point precision, the likelihood that>>two developers working independently would arrive at the>same,>>exact values for their data points is deep within the realm>of>>improbability...>>You are right, if the numbers truly are same. Hard to tell,>because there are no hard evidence about assumed air file>piracy.Please note carefully that I did not say that they WERE identical, since I haven't looked at either one of them! I simply said that IF the table entries in two separate .air files were numerically identical to six decimal points of precision, then sheer coincidence would be highly improbable!I have far too much respect for all of the parties to make any sort of judgment, one way or another. I'm personally confident that it will be resolved amicably by the respective designers.Mikko, please allow me to express my deepest condolences on the loss of your grandfather. I know how much sorrow you are going through at this juncture, having experienced the loss of four family members within the same year...BillFounder and Director,Creative Recycling of Aircraft Partshttp://catholic-hymns.com/frbill/FS2002/images/fartslogo.jpg

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I also agree with the grey area. And the IBM PC clone is a very good example of it. Any time someone thinks up a great idea and makes it work it will not doubt be copied - plain and simple. This is a good thing for us consumers, it keeps prices down and avoids monopolies.But it will never fail to irritate the person(s) who concieved the original idea.But the real point of my post is about DesertRats comments about not buying the SF.260 because of the Vinka - 1) YOUR MISSING OUT! The SF is a FAR superior offering, which is why it costs $. The panel graphics, the model, paint - you name it, RealAir has gotten it right in every way. The Vinka - it's a very very VERY good freeware plane.. but not at all in the same league.The SF really is that good and that much fun to fly... your actually cheating yourself.2) Your early comments sort of read like a kindergartner saying "nana nana naaanaaaaa".

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HI Eric, You can't do a true spin without rudder. It's the yaw moment which triggers the spin autorotation. "Spinning" with aileron and back elevator is a spiral dive. You can tell the difference because a spiral will usually accelerate the aircraft eventually through VNE.Regards,Rob Young

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MikkoMy sympathy with your loss too its never easy to loose someone closePeter

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