My "disappeared" library files

[Dark Moment 0]

I previously posted that a number of my files had disappeared from the Avsim library; that post has since been removed, it appears (I may be wrong, but I can't find it) so perhaps this one is not long for the course either.The bottom line is that 18 (?) of my co-authored files with Mikko Maliniemi, Kari Virtanen and others have been removed at Mikko's sole request. This is part of a general instruction by Mikko to remove ALL his work from Avsim. It would seem, therefore, that the Vinka incident - if, indeed, it was this that caused such a move - has left some ruffled feathers and bad feeling, for whatever reason.Which is my problem: Mikko has not replied to my mail over the past week, and the Avsim staff aren't telling! If I had some answers, then there might be no need to post here; but I have gone from being mildly concerned a week ago about the files' absence to being extremely annoyed. I am a patient man, but to have my work removed at someone else's behest, however minor my contribution might have been, is simply not right. It seems that just because one author gets a bee in his bonnet - we are not talking copyright issues here, after all, we are talking about some kind of personal vendetta - it is therefore OK to remove files that include others' hard work. I am curious to know what Avsim's actual library policy is on matters of this kind, where co-authorship is involved. Can someone shed some light on this (Tom, I wrote to you a few days ago too, but you have not replied)?I know of Mikko's bereavement, I know it is Finnish Midsummer and that everyone is in the woods up there but, hey, a little common courtesy would not be out of place, Mr. Maliniemi! In the meantime, I again apologise to those of you who have written asking about the files; Avsim is a significant and appreciated factor in my flightsim life and I intend to press this matter until those files are back on line.Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumonthttp://www.swiremariners.com/newlogo.jpg

[LAdamson 240]

>>The bottom line is that 18 (?) of my co-authored files with>Mikko Maliniemi, Kari Virtanen and others have been removed at>Mikko's sole request. This is part of a general instruction>by Mikko to remove ALL his work from Avsim. It would seem,>therefore, that the Vinka incident - if, indeed, it was this>that caused such a move - has left some ruffled feathers and>bad feeling, for whatever reason.>I really hope this isn't the case.........If so, I kind of get in an awful rotten mood--------- with those envolved. And now that you mention it, I don't see the Vinka file (here) either... :-fume Do these people not realize, that they stand to loose many, many sales of "future" products that they are involved in? It doesn't do any good to potentially loose a "simmer base", such as those who frequent Avsim. I hope there is some re-thinking on the subject. If not.....................................L.Adamson

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Mark, our policy is simple. If a file is contested for whatever reason, we remove the file until the two (or more) parties work the situation out. We will also remove an author's file for whatever reason, if he so requests. Mikko apparently requested that all *his* files be removed from AVSIM. We complied with that request. When a co-author requests removal, we honor the request assuming that the other co-authors were appraised of the situation. It is not our responsibility to check with everyone on the contributors list to get their permission to remove the file. Why Mikko requested the files be removed is either out of my memory banks, or I was not involved in the first place, or we didn't ask - we usually don't ask btw.As for the Vinka, he never reuploaded it to AVSIM. I don't know why he hasn't reuploaded here, and haven't asked.I have been out of town for the last couple of days, so I guess I must have missed your email.EDIT: I went back in recent mail and found that Matt J had in fact responded to you as to the reason the files were removed at Mikko's request. This is between you and Mikko, and needs to be dealt with directly. My personal opinion is that nothing is going to be solved here. In any case, you now know our policy.

[Dark Moment 0]

Thanks, Tom.Your comment:<<<>>Yes, Matt replied to me, but this was "the reason":<<<<>>I also had a note from Rick Rossner, saying in part:<<<>>>I have no complaints with your library managers whatsoever, who do a fantastic job. They are simply following their rules.Folks, since my post last night, both Tom Allensworth and Mikko Maliniemi have written to me privately by email.Tom has reaffirmed what he says above; that "we can't bring thosefiles back online until we get concensus from you guys that you have worked out the issues between you". I now know why Mikko withdrew his files, and I do not intend to publish his personal email here, despite my annoyance; suffice to say, it was indeed a personal matter between him, FSD and Avsim that caused all this. Therefore, I remain very frustrated that I, and others who have spent time on the 'Reds' project particularly, must see our work withdrawn because of such a thing and that Avsim's policy cannot defend us. I personally have spent many, many hours making a professional job of presenting the 'Reds' packages as quality freeware uploads, to the extent that the 'Reds' themselves host them on their official website. I am, as you will all understand, now severely embarrassed through no doing of my own, as are others who put together good work in good faith. I was at RAF Scampton only a week or so ago as guest of the 'Reds', and now wish I'd never mentioned Avsim, whereas I actually made a point of trumpeting it.I shall be replying to Mikko and I will ask him to reconsider. I am not optimistic. In which event - that is, that he continues to maintain his personal position - I shall be thinking very carefully about which freeware projects I will be involved in in the future. I find this whole buiness totally unacceptable and it leaves a very sour taste, I am afraid. Seems there will be no more 'Red Arrows' with the present team, at least, as if they cannot be uploaded to Avsim, I have no interest in pursuing the project. If I followed Mikko's lead, I could now ask him to remove all his files that include my Hawk panel, repaints and other work from every site, LOL, which would even sweep up his 'Midnight Hawks'; but what on earth would be the point of all that? All this matter is doing is badly damaging certain reputations and the real victim is the end user.I sent the full text of one fan's email to Mikko only last week:"You have made my son's day by making available the Red Arrows package as a downloadable version. My son of 21 has Severe Learning Difficulties, yet he is able to fly and land anything on his Flightsim. He and I as avid Air Show people share the same buzz from being able to fly the aircraft......" So think about that, Mikko, and those of you who let personal gripes get in the way of our wonderful hobby.Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumonthttp://www.swiremariners.com/newlogo.jpg

[LAdamson 240]

> All>this matter is doing is badly damaging certain reputations and>the real victim is the end user.And that's the whole point........... isn't it....The end user always get's the "screw" job in the end. This is exactly what "ticks" me so completely off...Fighting between each other is one thing, withdrawing files to make statements is another......... since the "good" public perception is usually lost.L.Adamson

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

You know Mark, I have to confess that I am totally flumexed. I have no idea as to why Mikko might have an issue with AVSIM, and if he has, it certainly hasn't been communicated to me, or that I remember in any case. I went back through my incoming email earlier this morning and found 1, exactly 1, bit of correspondance from Mikko that had absolutely nothing to do with this situation. So, I am at a loss as to why Mikko is apparently upset at AVSIM and why he has elected to remove the files as a result. I am sorry you are caught up in this, and that the simmer is paying the price. But I wished I knew what the heck "this" was....

[Dark Moment 0]

I hope I'm enough of a gentleman that, whatever the problems, no one would expect me to post private emails here in their entirety; but it does appear that the main problem is with FSD and/or certain of their staff. He says, however, that "even Avsim.com staff have been attacking" him and goes on to say quite a lot more, but the later comments are his opinions not 'fact'. So his problems with Avsim seem to all stem from this one-line comment. Why? Haven't a clue.I have written to him today; this is so unlike Mikko that I am prepared to believe that his recent family problems may have shortened his fuse somewhat. Time will tell ...Mark "Dark Moment" Beaumonthttp://www.swiremariners.com/newlogo.jpg

[Guest Steve Small]

Mark,Let me make a statement here that is clear and unambiguous :Mikko's actions to remove any of his files from any file library have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with FSD other than in the misuse of Copyright FSD material in his Vinka.I have never taken any action against Mikko such as withdrawing my contributions to his past efforts despite some provocation over the course of the last year or so. About a year and a half ago I simply stopped helping him for a variety of reasons but that was the end of it. In fact, only recently did I offer to support him in a Freeware C337 and didn't hold any ill-will against him until he made some unfortunate comments after misusing some files he "borrowed" from us. Any work I had done to support either Mikko or anyone else has never been something I have given a second thought to after the project was posted. Whatever reasons Mikko has for doing whatever it is he did with any files in any library have nothing to do with FSD.It is inaccurate for you to even suggest there is any link between Mikko's actions and FSD because there are none. If such a statement has been made (by Mikko, or anyone else) I can assure you it has no basis in fact and if such a statement or inference has been made I'd sure like to know the details so I can deal with such a misrepresentation - that is, if one exists.Rgds,.....Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[Guest TimD]

"but it does appear that the main problem is with FSD and/or certain of their staff. He says, however, that "even Avsim.com staff have been attacking" him"I will not presume to speak for Tom, or the rest of the Avsim staff. But quite frankly, I find that a little hard to believe. Avsim has been extremely professional about this whole thing.Likewise, so have FSD, and the other developers whose work appeared within the original release of the Vinka project. In fact I think he was treated quite well considering. He has removed all FSD material from the project, and has apologized publicly both here and in our forum over his actions during the whole matter. As far as FSD is concerned that is the end of the matter. If he feels otherwise, and believes that anyone at FSD, Avsim, or anyone else has mistreated him, I think such contentions would have a lot more credibility if they were made publicly, or even directly to those parties, rather than surreptitiously.The only thing I can tell you for sure is that there are no outstanding issues as far as FSD is concerned, and as far as we know the other developers involved feel the same way. If the files were removed it could have only been based on his own impetus. http://www.fsd-international.com/team/TD_forum_sig.gif

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

I'm being lazy here... Thank you Steve and Tim for posting your messages. I was about to send Steve an email asking what was up with all this.. Glad to see you beat me to the question/answer.. :)To sum up AVSIM's position on this, we did as we always do. We removed a contested file (in the case of the Vinka), and we removed files at the request of the author/co-author, as is our standing policy. If there is some further issue that Mikko has, he has not communicated that to us. I find that curious, because if there is an issue, I would think that the most expedient way to resolve it, if indeed Mikko wants to resolve it, is to contact me or any of the senior staff.

[Dark Moment 0]

<<>>Wrong, I'm afraid, and please be careful not to shoot the messenger, Steve. I'm British, so you should read anything I have said as an understatement rather than overstatement! But, as I have said, I am not going to start publicizing in this forum private emails sent to me. Perhaps, in due course, Mikko will explain in a public forum what this is all about, or speak to the relevant parties personally. Certainly, the comments made by various authors above refute all his reasoning to me. I'm just in the middle of all this, most unhappy that weeks of work have been arbitrarily removed from my favourite library without so much as a "by your leave".I have worked in the cruise shipping business for some twenty years, and have spent extended periods in both the Baltic countries (particularly Finland) and Asia and Oceania (particularly, Australia). I'm very conscious of how misunderstandings can develop between people of different national backgrounds, particularly in these rather anonymous online forums where the written word is everything and a smile is usually represented by an icon. So I hope it is only that, a misunderstanding. We shall see.Mark "Dark Moment" BeaumontP.S. I'm not the only sad co-author. Ian Grant will no doubt be thrilled that the link to his co-authored C185 from Bear's Top 30 picks no longer works ... dash it all, Mikko, this was not a good move of yours.http://www.swiremariners.com/newlogo.jpg

[Guest Steve Small]

>But, as I have said, I am not going to >start publicizing in this forum private >emails sent to meAgreed. I am sorry you are indeed in the middle of something not of your making ... but then again, it seems, so are we.The point I made to you earlier about my not caring about contributions to past joint projects highlights how important it is - as Larry Adamson observes - that the agreeable hobbyist / user who are by far the majority, should not get "the screw job" because of something they had nought to do with which in this case has seen the withdrawl of some pretty decent joint projects. In my case, I just stopped working on joint projects with Mikko and moved on : there was no suggestion of any retrospective action on my part such as Mikko apparently has taken here.If what you are inferring is correct, it sounds as though someone is attempting to blame us for something we have no knowledge of or part in. >dash it all, Mikko, this was not a good move of yours.I understand your disappointment and I think your comment represents another major British understatement. I would again emphasise that if there is any perceived "link" between Mikko's most recent borrowing of FSD's developments and his retrospective actions with regards file library holdings, then we don't know about it. Last we heard from Mikko was a few weeks ago when he posted a due and appropriate apology and we've long since moved on. We don't like troublemaking or unpleasantness and I don't believe any good purpose is to be served by prolonging this discussion in public. We won't prolong this discussion here, in this venue designed solely to serve the hobby in a positive way.If Mikko has something he wants to say, he knows how to reach us. .....Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[Guest Ken_Salter]

And with that I'm locking this thread...http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg