Designing must be tough these days

[ryanbatc 12,815]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release. Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

[Mace 1,902]

Yeah, there's nothing like getting nerd-raged in the morning, after you just spent 262 hours designing something.

[N400QW 205]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release. Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

Ryan, contrary to some folks assumption a majority of commercial devs do this because they love aviation. The revenue often does little more than break even.The attitudes of some in this community would have them summarily dismissed from any good real world FBO Pilots Lounge.You can usually chalk the attitudes and postings of some up to overblown or childish egos but at times it boils down to outright harmful personal "agendas".You are correct when you say that no FS product out here is bug free. We would go a step further and say that none of the highly touted products are perfect in that every feature folks want is not included. :( It really boils down to simulated aircraft/avionics in a simulated environment and that folks is not "as real as it gets" despite the marketing hyperbole.Our advice is to shut down the sim, drive to the local FBO, if licensed go for a flight, if not hang around the PL or watch the activity. Anything to restore a sense of reality as opposed to virtual reality. :(

[BMG50 9]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release. Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

Very,very well said and I agree!!!....Lou

[N400QW 205]

Yeah, there's nothing like getting nerd-raged in the morning, after you just spent 262 hours designing something.

We feel ya' Mace. :(

[ryanbatc 12,815]

Our advice is to shut down the sim, drive to the local FBO, if licensed go for a flight, if not hang around the PL or watch the activity. Anything to restore a sense of reality as opposed to virtual reality. :(

And that's one reason I love my job hahSometimes I think about FS, then realize how much I miss RW flying.... The FPS are much better anyway :(

[N400QW 205]

And that's one reason I love my job hahSometimes I think about FS, then realize how much I miss RW flying.... The FPS are much better anyway :(

Ha ha, and the resolution is amazing. :(

[snave 0]

To take the opposite view: The desire to do something is not sufficient justification for foisting a chargeable product on the Great Unwashed, and what makes anyone think FS developers are immune from the laws of supply and demand?There are far too many wishful-thinking products out there that don't even live up to their own hype, much less the adoration of the admiring purchasers. There's a recession on, and so any developer that's after making money had better wise-up and realise that fobbing off substandard tat ain't going to cut in todays' market. If the consumers are becoming better informed and more demanding, then the solution is to make the products right the first time, listen to the customers and provide full and proper support in line with the expectations of the audience. If those expectations were truly unrealistic, then developers should not develop. The fact that they do suggests that the consumer is right, the developers who fail to heed are wrong, and they then deserve every single criticism they get.. :( . It's a bugger being involved in the Luxury spend market in the current economic climate, and if you aren't up to the job, please leave by the nearest exit. :(

[N400QW 205]

Couldn't agree more Snave. That is the very reason we offer a no questions 30 day refund option. That clearly frees us from the "foisting" allegation. :( Those who do foist substandard on unsophisticated and unsuspecting folks do indeed deserve what they receive.On the other hand, this ain't our first rodeo and we've endured, and watched our fellow devs endure, some of the most ludicrous, childish, and outright falsehoods ever perpetrated.Add to the insult by stealing and then asking support and some days the blood boils. Further to the point, those who steal and are denied support often run off to public forums with their thinly disguised agendas and you have a community that not only stunts its own growth but actually attempts to eat its own young.Not a very pretty picture but until certain offendors mend their ways the "sense of community" will continue to decline. :(

[Guest diajohn2]

The internet contains a lot of hostility and child like actions by many. It doesn't matter if it is FS related, review of a lovely Caribbean Resort or cell phones, computers and anything. Some can never say good comments and I have learned to take a holistic approach when reading reviews and comments on forums. There are bullies, jerks and just those who may have had a bad experience often of their own making. Remember this is a world that loves McDonald's, isn't able to read a newspaper and frequently don't even know how their government works. Read forum comments as if you were walking in the park. Most of the path is clear but there are places where a dog's poop lies in wait. Just don't walk there. :(

[N400QW 205]

The internet contains a lot of hostility and child like actions by many. It doesn't matter if it is FS related, review of a lovely Caribbean Resort or cell phones, computers and anything. Some can never say good comments and I have learned to take a holistic approach when reading reviews and comments on forums. There are bullies, jerks and just those who may have had a bad experience often of their own making. Remember this is a world that loves McDonald's, isn't able to read a newspaper and frequently don't even know how their government works. Read forum comments as if you were walking in the park. Most of the path is clear but there are places where a dog's poop lies in wait. Just don't walk there. :(

Ha ha, now that sir is sound advice. :(

[irocx 292]

Good topic and timing Ryan - very well stated by you (and everyone here.) After starting to dabble in some scenery design and repainting, I realized just how much time, dedication and skill it really takes to make it "all come together". It's led to an even deeper appreciation of the talented folks from Aces, Orbyx, ESDG, PMDG etc, etc. Those people must do it for the love and the passion they have regarding aviation and flight simulation and I'm certain that these folks shoot for nothing short of perfection in every project they undertake. I try to do the same in my business but in stark reality things rarely, if ever, turn out "perfect" for everyone, no matter how hard you try.While to me it's acceptable and very useful for users to express their opinions about addons here in the forums, I agree that hopefully before they post, they try to realize, understand and appreciate the efforts and investment required to even release these creations.

[kiwikat 506]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release. Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

I really meant it a while back when I said I wouldn't post in any section of the AVSIM forum besides the PMDG support, but I'll break my rule just this once. I'm sure I'll regret it... lolI know that "turbo version" has to do with my comment on SOH about the Carenado Saratoga. How is that negative? There is absolutely nothing negative about it. I never said their product was bad because they didn't make a turbo version. I took a few hours of MY time and came up with a cfg that makes it turbo so I can do my hoplist with it. I never demanded that Carenado do it for me. I do demand that they fix their mapping PROBLEMS. Yes, PROBLEMS that the developer should have caught in development or beta testing.As for that locked thread, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what was said. For the reasons the disappointed customers specified and I suspected, I will not be purchasing that product either.If you guys want to "understand and appreciate the efforts and investment required to even release these creations", become a beta tester. It will open your eyes. I post criticism rather regularly for a reason. I know things can be done better. As a tester, I EXPECT them to be better.Developers have to put up with customers, otherwise they won't have a job. Simple as that. Anyone that has ever held a job where you interact with the public in any form will know that.

[rservice 4]

I really meant it a while back when I said I wouldn't post in any section of the AVSIM forum besides the PMDG support, but I'll break my rule just this once. I'm sure I'll regret it... lolI know that "turbo version" has to do with my comment on SOH about the Carenado Saratoga. How is that negative? There is absolutely nothing negative about it. I never said their product was bad because they didn't make a turbo version. I took a few hours of MY time and came up with a cfg that makes it turbo so I can do my hoplist with it. I never demanded that Carenado do it for me. I do demand that they fix their mapping PROBLEMS. Yes, PROBLEMS that the developer should have caught in development or beta testing.As for that locked thread, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what was said. For the reasons the disappointed customers specified and I suspected, I will not be purchasing that product either.If you guys want to "understand and appreciate the efforts and investment required to even release these creations", become a beta tester. It will open your eyes. I post criticism rather regularly for a reason. I know things can be done better. As a tester, I EXPECT them to be better.Developers have to put up with customers, otherwise they won't have a job. Simple as that. Anyone that has ever held a job where you interact with the public in any form will know that.

Customers also have to put up with major developers like Microsoft who never seem to finish a product like Windows version whatever.I do appreciate all the developers in the FS world however,who for the most part give a good effort to produce addons for a limited market.It is up to the customer to read reviews and examine what is offered to make an informed decision before they buy.Ron

[Guest Astradan]

I'm not so sure it's customers who drive up the expectations, it's often competing developers.When something like the latest PMDG release comes out, everything changes. The bar is raised. Customers are literally given everything they wanted and a whole lot more. When other releases come that are way behind that 'state of the art', or that lack key features that are provided with the majority of releases, clearly customers' will be disappointed and their expectations will not be met.Everything in the world these days in driven by hyper-capitalism. Consumers often get a raw deal and can be treated like nothing more than the 'next dime' sometimes. So it's only natural that customers are pushing back and demanding value and quality from those they pass their hard-earned money to.I'd also add that the Flight 1 refund policy is exemplary. What better confidence can a consumer be given than a no quibble guarantee like this. It's awesome, I wish the other publishers and devs would have as much confidence in their products.@kiwikat - Respect for your comments!