UAL895 KORD-VHHH

[Guest d809dp]

Hi There,I'm trying to work out how this flight might work and here's my problem.Using a real world route from flightaware.com I get a distance of 7046nm. Here are the answers that FSBUILD gives me with 10 to 15 knots of headwind:1. ZFW: 215,000 kg (473,000lbs) >>> route fuel of 165,000kg (363,000lbs)2. ZFW: 210,000 kg (462,000lbs) >>> route fuel of 160,000kg (352,000lbs)Given a max fuel capacity in the queen of 173,425kg (381,500lbs), a fuel load of 165,000kg (option one above) only gives me a spare fuel capacity for all eventualities (alternate, landing fuel, contingency) of around 8,000kg (17,600lbs). This is not very much!However, a lower ZFW (which would save fuel for contingencies etc.) means I only have a load weight (ZFW-dry operating weight) of 31,245kg (68,739lbs) which is not a full 747-400 - assuming 100kg per person, that's only 312 pax!!So (finally) here's my question - how do UAL operate this flight? Do they only operate at 80% capacity (I can't imagine this) or do they land with very little fuel on board? Maybe my calculations are wrong. What would be really cool would be some kind of loadsheet or real world experience of this flight.Can anyone help?Any help welcome!Cheers,Tom

[Tabs 2,790]

Tom,Are you taking winds and step climbs into account? I'd imagine the answer lies somewhere involving those...

[RyanB 0]

Tom,Are you taking winds and step climbs into account? I'd imagine the answer lies somewhere involving those...

Even with the best winds and step climbs - I've attempted this flight max fuel MTOW. You get around 12,000-15,000 pounds of fuel at best (including FMC recommended step climbs, every 2,000 feet). dropping 5,000 pounds of people/cargo will bring you to the 20-25k pound mark. (Which is still really cutting it close)

[BlueStar 323]

Tom,If they can not make the trip because of weight or fuel, they will unload cargo until they can. Depending on the destination weather, they may only need a 30/45 minute reserve. The filed alternate will be short of the destination. If they see they can not make it on fuel, they will land short at their alternate. Remember the cost index will be around 100-125 and the take off and climb will be derated. Headwinds in the 80-100 knot range are not uncommon during the winter. Freighters going to VHHH will normally stop in PANC to refuel because they do not normally have the luxury of unloading cargo. Bill

[falk781 0]

Tom,If they can not make the trip because of weight or fuel, they will unload cargo until they can. Depending on the destination weather, they may only need a 30/45 minute reserve. The filed alternate will be short of the destination. If they see they can not make it on fuel, they will land short at their alternate. Remember the cost index will be around 100-125 and the take off and climb will be derated. Headwinds in the 80-100 knot range are not uncommon during the winter. Freighters going to VHHH will normally stop in PANC to refuel because they do not normally have the luxury of unloading cargo. Bill

I just did this flight, but the other way around... I landed it with about 5000 lb on board of fuel left over. Remember that your going to keep recieving the insufficient fuel warning if at any time your reserves exceed your remaining fuel at landing. It's about a 13+ hour flight with a 30 kt push.

[realpilotsimpilot 11]

Freighters going to VHHH will normally stop in PANC to refuel because they do not normally have the luxury of unloading cargo. Bill

There's a reason Fed Ex and UPS both use PANC as a hub for most Asian bound or originated cargo.

[cc1701a 0]

Just as the manual says work it backwards figure what your planned landing weight will be.(21000lbs Inter. allowance, contingincy, and alternate fuel, and your ZFW) From this figure now, you can figure your fuel for your trip. If you go over your MTOW with the fuel required to make the trip (vrs. rwy lenght dry/wet, altitude, temperature, flaps, etc. Optimum and Maximum cruise) You'll just need to add a stop for fuel before you cross the big pond. You never want to cut yourself short. Good luck Capt.

[Guest mabrodb]

UAL895 ORD-HKG is the ultra-long haul ops for our 747-400s. The avg. flt time typically exceeds 14hrs enroute and yes, it generally flies the 4 or so polar routes up over the top.During certain times, flts have exceeded 15hrs flt time.We have a 374 seating capacity, however, this flt is planned to typically take less than the full seat count to ensure adequate fuel. The last few hours of the trip have plenty of useful diversionary stations, such as Beijing/ZBAA, Shanghai/ZSPD, or Canton/ZGGG, should the need arise.This flt typically departs w/ full max fuel tanks and near MTOW of 875,000lbs. Each one of our 747s has a discreet fuel tank size, which are slightly larger than Boeing standard. We do not have an extra AUX tank, however, the tanks are just simply more spacious! We measured each one over a long process to ensure this accuracy.In addition, we also rank our 25 747s for the best long range performer, that being N119UA. We also 10 yrs ago, upgraded our engines to PhaseIII mod for the PW4056, which improved the fuel burn performance on these ultra-long haulers.N119UA is deemed the best, as it has a low dry Wt of 415,000lbs, and a bigger fuel tank of 57558 usg, and is burning close to the original delivery spec. Yes, each a/c is unique.A sample plan would bePlanned ZFW 495,700lbs (Empty 415,000lbs + 80,700lbs payload)Est. TOW 872,800lbsEst. LDW 521,700lbstotal fuel on board at takeoff 377,100lbs + 2,000lbs taxi out from gate.REServe 26,000 lbsBURN 351,100 lbs / ETE 14:45 / Planned @ Cost Index 32, which is around M.84 to M.85.One thing good about the Polar rts, not much headwind! The avg HW component we see is only -5 to -10kts at most. Enjoy your adventure.Marc

[pdavies 0]

Excellent info, Marc - very interesting. It would sure be sweet to implement this info into a PMDG aircraft for an update... :(

[Guest d809dp]

Hey Marc,That's a great response, full of useful information... combining FSBuild's step climbs and your info I think I'll be able to get pretty realistic planning on this flight. I'm particularly impressed that UAL still manage to get a relatively decent ZFW up there, but I guess the low headwind component also helps.Thanks again! :( I'm going to fly this flight in early December (wife's away on a trip... home alone!!). Looking forward to it already.Cheers,Tom

[Guest mabrodb]

I'm going to fly this flight in early December (wife's away on a trip... home alone!!). Looking forward to it already.

you can fly it in real-time and really have a go. For a given flt we typically run 15 various routings from ORD-HKG to pick the best fuel burn rte based on the wx for that specific day. CITYPAIR COMPARISON UAL895 , ORD-HKGVRNT 4 RTNG 820 VIA OPTIMIZED-DEVID OFF744UA 747-4 ZFW 49655932 ECON /F310 DCT BAE J101 GRB DCT 50N087W DCT 55N086WDCT 60N086W DCT 65N086W DCT 70N085W DCT 75N085W DCT80N086W DCT 85N090W DCT DEKMO DCT DEVID B480 PETAG B934MX B155 TUNIR A45 USONA G490 SERNA M520 POLHO G218 TMRB458 WXI A461 LIG R473 WYN W18 NLG W23 ZUH R473 SIERADCTDIST 7235 ESAD 7235 MINF 376992 TRIPF 356930 EET 15.06PROFILE F310 75N085W/F330 DEKMO/F320 DEVID/S0960 PETAG/S1110MX/S1060 TUNIR/S1010 SERNA/F364 POLHO/S1100 TMR/S1190WXI/S1160 ZF/S1220 LIG/S1190 NNX/S1160 ZUH/S0750SIERA/S0630 DCTVRNT 5 RTNG 830 VIA OPTIMIZED-RAMEL OFF744UA 747-4 ZFW 49655932 ECON /F310 DCT BAE J101 GRB DCT 50N088W DCT 55N088WDCT LODMI DCT 65N090W DCT 70N093W DCT 75N098W DCT80N110W DCT 84N141W DCT RAMEL G491 SULOK G218 TMR B458WXI A461 LIG R473 WYN W18 NLG W23 ZUH R473 SIERA DCTDIST 7046 ESAD 7195 MINF 375670 TRIPF 355607 EET 14.59PROFILE F310 75N098W/F330 80N110W/F340 RAMEL/S1060 SULOK/F381POLHO/S1100 TMR/S1190 WXI/S1160 ZF/S1220 LIG/S1190NNX/S1160 ZUH/S0750 SIERA/S0630 DCTVRNT 6 RTNG 840 VIA OPTIMIZED-NIKIN OFF744UA 747-4 ZFW 49655932 ECON /F290 DCT BAE J101 GRB DCT DURIL DCT 55N089WDCT AVOKU DCT 65N094W DCT 70N100W DCT 75N115W DCT COALLDCT NIKIN G226 UTS G495 KU G496 NAREM B161 SULOK G218TMR B458 WXI A461 LIG R473 WYN W18 NLG W23 ZUH R473SIERA DCTDIST 7069 ESAD 7251 MINF 377654 TRIPF 357592 EET 15.11PROFILE F290 GRB/F300 DURIL/F290 55N089W/F300 70N100W/F320NIKIN/S0960 SULOK/F381 POLHO/S1100 TMR/S1190 WXI/S1160AKOMA/S1220 LIG/S1190 NNX/S1160 ZUH/S0750 SIERA/S0630DCTVRNT 7 RTNG 850 VIA OPTIMIZED-ORVIT OFF744UA 747-4 ZFW 49655932 ECON /F290 DCT BAE J101 GRB DCT DURIL DCT 55N089WDCT AVOKU DCT 65N094W DCT 70N100W DCT 75N115W DCT OMEKADCT ORVIT G494 LURET G495 KU G496 NAREM B161 SULOK G218TMR B458 WXI A461 LIG R473 WYN W18 NLG W23 ZUH R473SIERA DCTDIST 7068 ESAD 7250 MINF 377654 TRIPF 357592 EET 15.10PROFILE F290 GRB/F300 DURIL/F290 55N089W/F300 70N100W/F320ORVIT/S0960 SULOK/F381 POLHO/S1100 TMR/S1190 WXI/S1160ZHO/S1220 LIG/S1190 NNX/S1160 ZUH/S0750 SIERA/S0630 DCT

[pdavies 0]

I spoke too soon. This should be pinned for the routes - I've tried this flight many times to no avail. It is time to try again!

[phil747fan 14]

Marc,pretty sure too that you re still using RIF for shaving and saving fuel reserve ...!!!

[falk781 0]

Good Grief this was long... I finally did the KORD to VHHH. The flight plan was the following:PETTY SSM J552 YMO 5700N 08000W 6530N 07000W 7000N 06400W 7500N 06000W 8000N 06000W 8500N 05000W ABERI B934 KUTET B934 TUSNA B934 MX B155 TUNIR A45 USONA G490 SERNA M520 MODUN M520 POLHO G218 TMR B458 WXI A461 LIG R473 WYN W18 NLG W23 ZUH R473 SIERA The original flight was scheduled for 14 hours 48 minutes and I made it in 14 hours and 44 minutes. I also had a gate arrival time within 1 minute of the real world flight, although I got off in Chicago about 10 minutes earlier then them. You can check your ACARS in the FMC for a good record of the In/Out times for the departure and arrival airport, if you weren't familiar with it. For some reason, I can start the chrono, but it keeps going back to zero and I can never get the total time out of it.Nautical Flight Miles - 7326Initial Altitude 30,000 - Step to 33,000 then to 35,000 and in the last 1000 miles went to 41000 in the hopes to save a little more fuelAvg. Wind - 42 TailCruise Speed - LRCPAX - 51,120Cargo - 28000ZFW - 473208MLF - 24000Alternate - 0Contingency- 0Correction Fuel - 10,624PLW - 347705Taxi Out Weight - 859,937Fuel Entered Prior to Departure - 382,329Reserves Set To - 24000Landed with 6,500 in the tanksFor some reason, Active Sky only gave wind calcs to the Apex of the flight which is the ABERI waypoint. There is no wind up there whatsoever, but it really didn't matter, because I couldn't put any more fuel in anyway, maybe could have taken a few pax off. On the final leg of the trip, I was confronted with the very strog easterly wind which was a crossing/head/tail wind of 115 - 130 knots depending on position. For my VHHH - KLAX trips, its very common to see 120 - 140 knot tail winds.

[Slick9 24]

Good Grief this was long... I finally did the KORD to VHHH. The flight plan was the following:PETTY SSM J552 YMO 5700N 08000W 6530N 07000W 7000N 06400W 7500N 06000W 8000N 06000W 8500N 05000W ABERI B934 KUTET B934 TUSNA B934 MX B155 TUNIR A45 USONA G490 SERNA M520 MODUN M520 POLHO G218 TMR B458 WXI A461 LIG R473 WYN W18 NLG W23 ZUH R473 SIERA The original flight was scheduled for 14 hours 48 minutes and I made it in 14 hours and 44 minutes. I also had a gate arrival time within 1 minute of the real world flight, although I got off in Chicago about 10 minutes earlier then them. You can check your ACARS in the FMC for a good record of the In/Out times for the departure and arrival airport, if you weren't familiar with it. For some reason, I can start the chrono, but it keeps going back to zero and I can never get the total time out of it.Nautical Flight Miles - 7326Initial Altitude 30,000 - Step to 33,000 then to 35,000 and in the last 1000 miles went to 41000 in the hopes to save a little more fuelAvg. Wind - 42 TailCruise Speed - LRCPAX - 51,120Cargo - 28000ZFW - 473208MLF - 24000Alternate - 0Contingency- 0Correction Fuel - 10,624PLW - 347705Taxi Out Weight - 859,937Fuel Entered Prior to Departure - 382,329Reserves Set To - 24000Landed with 6,500 in the tanksFor some reason, Active Sky only gave wind calcs to the Apex of the flight which is the ABERI waypoint. There is no wind up there whatsoever, but it really didn't matter, because I couldn't put any more fuel in anyway, maybe could have taken a few pax off. On the final leg of the trip, I was confronted with the very strog easterly wind which was a crossing/head/tail wind of 115 - 130 knots depending on position. For my VHHH - KLAX trips, its very common to see 120 - 140 knot tail winds.

Did the FMC strugge a little bit above 80N to maintain the LNAV calculated route? I flew this flight and the reverse a few weeks ago and it all worked beautifully, I landed about 10 minutes later than UAL895, but I did notice that above 80* lattitude on both sides of the pole the aircraft would crisscross the magenta line as it tried to follow the LNAV track.