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PART 2: FSD! Im over add-ons with anti-piracy built in.

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why not just come up with a new installer....something like the flight1 wrapper...something that would tie the install routine with the user having to enter several items of personal information that he would not likely give out to friends/neighbors such as credit card#, name and full address...you could sell it on cd ONLY as well and make the user register his personal info with your website so that when he tries to install with the cd, the installer will look for a match of his registered credit card#, expiration date, name AND full address...this will stop the majority of users who wish to SHARE their new toys with friends AND it would make a hackers job alot more difficult to crack all that requested info.To my way of thinking it is less intrusive to check the users hardware instead of his credit card info and address...but that may be an opinion left up to the end user...perhaps you could ofer a choice...the only problem would come in when a user stops/closes a credit card account that he once used for a flightsim purchase...so perhaps the industry could even come up with a universal type of credit/debit card strictly to be used for flightsim purchases online?...a flightsim debit card sounds like a neat idea to me, personally...where the user can credit any amount he wishes to be placed on the card for his online purchses (sort of like paypal does)...noones going to give out their debit card# and expir date along with their names and addresses, tel#'s etc.If all the online flightsim retailers get together on this then perhaps a deal can be worked out with a company like PAYPAL to make up the debit cards to distribute...perhaps avsim could even help...or MS themselves...doesnt sound like a terribly difficult thing to get done but all the online flightsim reatilers would have to agree to accept the card to begin with.Dave

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Civil it is! I apologize for reposting this from part one, but I'd personally like to see the thread go in this direction because it is really interesting to me...>>While a department supervisor of an international>corporation>>with approx. 150 computers in my department, I was surprised>>to learn from the IT guys that my MS Office 2000 upgrade on>>ONE computer required an INDIVIDUAL license to be purchased>@>>$650.00 US. I was told at that time that MS can visit>anytime>>they choose and examine INDIVIDUAL licenses for each machine>>and can levy large fines and in extreme cases deny existing>>licenses to the corporation.>>>You've lost me here. What is surprising about that? MS could>come around to my house any time they wish to look at my>licences. Far more preferable than product activation if you>ask me. I'd even put the kettle on for them.I've been lurking through this thread because I find it very interesting. What is being debated has nothing to do with FS or piracy, really. What is at issue is the difference between copyright and patents, and who has the authority to enforce law against abuses of either. Software AUTHORs grant an end-user a license because what is protected is a document - the code. The fact that a machine can use that code to simulate flight has no bearing legally. It is the civil right of the owner of that document do read and interpret it however (s)he feels fit. Whether I need to use this computer or another to make that interpretation is my business (bear with me, I'm speaking in legal perspectives here). Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone would be willing to grant microsoft the authority to police copyright law in any context, be it sending a guy in for tea or requiring activation of the product. This does illustrate a blurring of the law with respect to software. Since the code requires a machine to be of any use, should it be protected by copyright or patent? Its a grey scale. However, its the software developers that must realize that agreeing to this (referring to allowing developer-based tracking of software) shifts that grey away from copyright protection to patentable technology - soon (or never, we'll see) the software you write may not be a legally protected document, but a technology. This has ramafications. Are *you* going to patent an addon for FS? Microsoft will, and then you as the developer have no rights to the design... Great news for companies like intuit. Bad news for FSD. I find it interesting to see where small developers fall on this line. By proactively protecting the document they've created, companies like FSD are strengthening the case of corporations who want to make software a patentable technology. I'm not saying thats wrong, just pointing out that what is being discussed here is far deeper than what you're all reading.To summarize: there are two concurrent arguments here which can be separated.1.) Civil Rights argument - currently, software is considered a document protected by copyright. Does the author have the authority to protect his work by monitoring when/where/how that document is "read"?2.) Legal Definition - Should software be considered a document protected by copyright or a technology protected by patent?Thanks,back to lurking.sg

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Thanks, Ken, for this second thread; the first was getting pretty congested!>Ian,>>See my post above. We did not know any such thing. >But given the cirumstances, we were certainly entitled to>inquire. It was the inquiry that the person in>question objected to. In a very impolite manner.>>by TimDHi, Tim. If I may put an opinion here: the mere fact of asking the guy to explain his usage can be upsetting; it hints that he might have done something wrong and makes him need to defend himself. Maybe it would be better in such cases to give the customer the benefit of the doubt; I mean how many such excessive requests do you get?I myself have had to install Ultimate Traffic and the Meridian several times for one reason or another, and I wouldn't have liked the developer to ask me to explain why all these installs! In fact the key was reactivated in both cases more than twice without any questions.All the best.

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Whether he barks or whimpers, the Customer is always right! Always!! No exceptions. The developer is not making any points with me on this one. From what I've read, the customer got hassled, got frustrated, responded in colorful english, and then was proven legitimate. Just apologize and give him a free airplane and let it go. Any good businessman knows that. Don't try to point fingers to satisfy an ego. You'll lose. Everytime!!

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hi folks,interesting threat to read. first let me say that i dont blame fsd for their copyright policy. its up to them how they protect their legal rights. i took some time to figure out the basics. first to say is that we are talking about "standart software". thats a kind of software which is NOT special written or modified for a single person of company. and for this "standart software", the "United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods" is the base on which we are talking about. its accepted in US, german and (as far as i know) all EU nations, that "standart software" is seen as "commercial goods" covered by the CISG. you cannot write EVERYTHING you want into the license agreement and you cannot limit the amount of re-installations of the software done by the original purchaser of the software on his OWN computer. but its also the right of the salesman of the software to cancel the contract if the customer violates the contract. and i think FSD reacted very moderate by sending him an email to explain his requests, special because of the different adresses. so i dont see anything problematic in the way fsd dealed with this situation. i for myself wouldnt buy software which requires unlocking over the internet, just because i fear that the company couldnt exist anymore once i need to unlock, but thats just my personal opinion. cheerstom(ex- project airbus)

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>i for myself wouldnt buy>software which requires unlocking over the internet, just>because i fear that the company couldnt exist anymore once i>need to unlock, but thats just my personal opinion. >>cheers>>tom>(ex- project airbus)That's an interesting point - should it be legal for a company to sell an application that would cease to function if that company went out of business?

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Big Shot Is totally Right;1). THE CUSTOMER IS ALLWAYS RIGHT2).IF YOU DONT LIKE RULE # 1 ;REFER TO RULE #2.. The CUSTOMER IS ALLWAYS RIGHT If it was`nt for customer who gave the company thier hard earned money ,THEY WOULD be out of bussinessand for word of mouth to other propective buyers, Let me tell you...Word does get around

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My experiences with FSD have been nothing but good. For reasons that are too long and boring to go into I 'lost' all my FSD software. So sent an email to Steve explaining the situation and within two hours had everything I needed to download and set up all the planes. This was despite the fact I had not used FS2002 for probably 8 months or more.They have, and will always have, my custom.Bill

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thats the risk of normal life....think about your car. what would happen if you buy a car and one year later the company is out of busines. no guaratee, no spareparts, no help anymore. thats business.

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My experiences with FSD have all been fantastic- they put out great products with great support. As far as I can tell all they did here was politely question what, on its face, seems like very suspicious activity on the part of one of their customers. They then complied to help him out, regardless of whether they might, in fact, be losing money by doing so. I fail to see the arguments for the other side here, I only wish every add-on firm was as straight up about how they operate and the quality of product they provide to the FS community as FSD.Best,Joel

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>Think of your carMaybe that's a bad analogy. If ford went out of business, I could still walk out the door and use my car. Even if something integral went wrong with the car, I could pay to have it fixed without ford being in existance. However, if FSD went under (to keep with the current example), I could not reinstall, and hence never use, their product again...I'm sure an analogy exists, but I'm hard pressed to come up with one outside of a service industry...sg

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>Maybe that's a bad analogy. If ford went out of business, I could still walk out the door and use my car

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"think about your car. what would happen if you buy a car and one year later the company is out of busines. no guaratee, no spareparts, no help anymore. thats business."Anyone have a Yugo for sale?? :-lol

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First, as Steve and Tim point out in the previous thread, their customer was taken care of BEFORE he posted his message here - what does that tell you??? An agenda perhaps? Steve and Tim asked a legitimate question; why so many installs in such a short period - not unreasonable and not the FSD behemouth/bad guy that some wish to paint it. Their question was met with abuse from the customer; I saw the response. Believe me, it was very abusive (and from a user that we don't wish to see in our community and which subsequently got him banned here).This is NOT about FSD or their customer however. The real issue IS all about machine binding as a way of securing a product. I think I can confidently say that the majority of users within this forum system are all for anti-piracy. After all, the vast majority of us are honest, law abiding types, that don't like the idea of having to pay for someone else's thievery. Piracy, like shop lifting, costs all of us. To preach anti-piracy here is akin to singing to the choir.The issue is methods of protecting ones work. Let's focus on that, shall we? Whose methods works best? What level of "pain" are you willing to abide to protect the interests of not only the commercial developer, but your investment? Think about it. If you are a paying customer, piracy hurts you too. If a company folds in frustration, and it has happened more than I can count, then where does that leave you?

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>thats the risk of normal life....>>think about your car. what would happen if you buy a car and>one year later the company is out of busines. no guaratee, no>spareparts, no help anymore. thats business.What??No Parts? Whether or not a car company goes out of business is a moot issue. Auto parts for most cars are avialable from a variety of parts manufacturers.No Help? There are a TON of qualified auto mechanics out there for just about every vehicle imaginable.No Garuntee? Every car has a warranty, after that then you have no garuntees anyways. And what about used automobiles? Most of them have an extremely short warranty....if one at all.

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<>Hi Joel,I won't make a judgement about who was right and who was wrong in this case. The reason is simple... I have no way of verifying the evidence presented by both parties. I was not a first person witness to their e-mail exchanges, so I simply will not involve myself in their business dealings with each other.What most of us are taking a stand on here is the machine binding methodology of theft protection. Trying to stop piracy by intruding into the computers and private lives of your paying customers simply cannot succeed. I have nothing to hide on my computer and in my home, but that doesn't mean I should allow an invasion of my privacy to prove that fact. I won't tolerate such treatment, and I believe msot civilized persons share that believe.I won't be installing any of my FSD products when the new sim arrives. Though I respect their right to do all they can to protect their property, I simply wish not to be inconvienced and intruded upon by such policies and methods. That's my right as a consumer. There are other choices available... both freeware and payware.Regards,

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I would like to say something about the idea that the "customer is always right".Anyone who has worked in a customer service industry would probably agree that there will always be people who are just not worth having as customers.All of us, I am sure, have had the experience of standing behind some jerk at Mcdonalds who spends 10 minutes cussing at the counter person because they forgot to put catsup on his kid's happy meal burger. Undoubtedly, the manager will come out and apologize profusely to this idiot and give him some free food, even though what he really deserves is to be dragged out of the store and told never to return.When I was young I worked a lot of retail, and I cannot even begin to express how much I completely lost all faith in humanity through the experience. Companies need to draw the line with unreasonable people somewhere. At some point, they need to simply say "We don't really want your business. Thank you and goodbye." Too often in this society, people have this strange notion that they deserve whatever they want, just because they are a customer, and they can feel free to be as abusive and unreasonable as they like.I am not suggesting that this rant has anything to do with this particular example, but I do think that the idea of the "customer is always right" gives some people the idea that they can go through life ignoring simple common courtesy and civility (not to mention trying to mooch as many freebies as possible -- i.e. people who make a habit of complaining in restaraunts to get free food).Often, the customer is wrong, and he needs to be shown the door if he can't deal with it.

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Well said. Appropriate amoung these pages where more often than not, the abusive customers haven't even paid for the product they complain about (I mean *freeware*, but whatever). ;)

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I heartedly concur with that sentiment. The guy that screams the loudest "I am your customer, I am always right" is usually the customer you don't want. Over the last twenty years or so, I have negotiated contracts up to $24 million in value. There are a number of contract negoatiations in which I have told the "customer" to get stuffed (politely), and walked away. Taking their business would have cost my company more than the contract was worth. Trust me, some customers you don't want.

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>thats the risk of normal life....>think about your car. what would happen if you buy a car and one >year later the company is out of busines. no guaratee, no >spareparts, no help anymore. thats business.Yes I agree, but you dont lose the keys to start the car, do you?, IF FSD go out of business, and your disk crashes, you cant even re-install your stuff, never mind support (Spare Parts).So Your post has no stance, and IMHO your finding any excuse to support FSD, in a very unrealistic and bias apporach. This discussion is objective. What I have a problem with is their attituide that seems to be all paying customers are pirates untill they prove themself Innoncent. Do car companies refuse to help you because you have changed your tyers a million times?. I totally Understand FSD in that they dont want to lose 30% of their income, but the IP thing is a joke, and anybody can see IP'S will issue a dynamic IP.Jason

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"What I have a problem with is their attituide taht all paying customers are pirates untill they prove themself Innoncent."Well that is where I have a problem. I have read every message in both threads now, and I don't see that implication. I have seen folks interpret the action/piracy prevention of FSD as in fact the "attitude" that you convey, but I have seen no indication in either Steve's or Tim's posting that this presumption is as you paint it. They queried a single user, and you seem to have jumped to this massive conclusion. I don't get it.

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Tom,Whilst I every respect for your opinnion, I doubt you would be treated as normal customer. I wonder what you would get away with as oppsed to a normal customer. Lest say I re-Installed My software 10 times in 2 hours, and you did the same. Lets say we both had very legit reasons. You as you, using your name, would not be subject to the 3rd Degree and be asked for an explinantion as to whats going on. However I would be, why is that?. If you doubt it, I challenge you to try it out when the dust settles, and post your results. It is easy for you to take a bias side, but you have not been on the end of their wrath, I have, and if you want I will mail you the correspondence between us, and you will see clearly why im fustrated.FSD has no business in Checking up on me, and how many times I have installed my software. IF they cant work out what is going on then their system is not working.Jason..

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