This is an interesting thread and I'm glad it's found it's way to public discussion because I've often wondered about personal comments (opinions) made by posters with commercial member tags and product signatures lines.Here's how I see it...If I go out to a public place and I meet someone dressed in a uniform or that has a name tag that lists a company, I'm going to associate that person with their public image/logo. If they have something negative to say or they have an opinion that offends me, it's going to reflect on their association. If they change clothes or remove the logo, and say something, I'm going to think it's John Doe stating his own personal opinion. I think that goes for many people reading postings.If you are a commercial developer, I would think it's in one's own best interest, as well has their company's interest, to have a second login devoted to when you are speaking as a simmer and not as a company representative (I'm not sure if multiple logins are allowed on AVSIM). At the very least, remove your company banner from the signature line.I've formed some positive as well as negative opinions about some companies based on what I've read from postings by company employees. If you don't think your personal opinion has any affect on customers, then you'd be surprised to know that I've avoided buying specific products just because of the poor attitude reflected in some postings. As much as I try to differentiate the person from the entity, there's that company logo staring me in the face and over time, that logo generates an immediate positive or negative reminder when I see it. I don't think I'm alone in this observation.Food for thought the next time you want to simply state "your opinion" and leave your company logo on your posting. It's unlikely your customers and potential customers will make the differentiation.

I didn't ask to be 'branded' a commercial member.I don't come here to promote anything I do. I've been here longer as a simmer than a commercial member. However, AVSIM feels we must be revealed as commercial members, no matter what. We have no choice.

This is an interesting thread and I'm glad it's found it's way to public discussion because I've often wondered about personal comments (opinions) made by posters with commercial member tags and product signatures lines.Here's how I see it...If I go out to a public place and I meet someone dressed in a uniform or that has a name tag that lists a company, I'm going to associate that person with their public image/logo. If they have something negative to say or they have an opinion that offends me, it's going to reflect on their association. If they change clothes or remove the logo, and say something, I'm going to think it's John Doe stating his own personal opinion. I think that goes for many people reading postings.If you are a commercial developer, I would think it's in one's own best interest, as well has their company's interest, to have a second login devoted to when you are speaking as a simmer and not as a company representative (I'm not sure if multiple logins are allowed on AVSIM). At the very least, remove your company banner from the signature line.I've formed some positive as well as negative opinions about some companies based on what I've read from postings by company employees. If you don't think your personal opinion has any affect on customers, then you'd be surprised to know that I've avoided buying specific products just because of the poor attitude reflected in some postings. As much as I try to differentiate the person from the entity, there's that company logo staring me in the face and over time, that logo generates an immediate positive or negative reminder when I see it. I don't think I'm alone in this observation.Food for thought the next time you want to simply state "your opinion" and leave your company logo on your posting. It's unlikely your customers and potential customers will make the differentiation.

I could be wrong (I only work here for free) but as far as I know there are only single log ins accepted here.I personally think it is a good thing to know who are "commercial" and who are not.Also-in the case of confusion-it is simple to post-this post is not a reflection of my company but my personal view.As a "mod" I have already found as a flightsimmer since 1981 that sometimes I have to preface a post with-this is not an offical mod view-but one as a simmer with personal views.. and I have to state-this is my view as a simmer and not as a mod...

I didn't ask to be 'branded' a commercial member.I don't come here to promote anything I do. I've been here longer as a simmer than a commercial member. However, AVSIM feels we must be revealed as commercial members, no matter what. We have no choice.

It helps sift out people promoting a product they are involved in without disclosing their associations.

I agree with previous posts that commercial members should be as free to share in these forums as everyone else. I think they can provide unique perspectives on the products we all use for our simming experience. And I also remind myself that developers are fans and users of other products and experience the same both good and bad in all products as well. As long as their posts are within the rules set by the administrator of the forum I am happy to hear what they have to say.Thank you.

I didn't ask to be 'branded' a commercial member.I don't come here to promote anything I do. I've been here longer as a simmer than a commercial member. However, AVSIM feels we must be revealed as commercial members, no matter what. We have no choice.

Same here. And it really seems to limit what we can say and how people interpret what we say.I'm really not a commercial member right now, however I do beta test for a handful of companies. My initial ties with Alphasim that got me that title were cut almost a year ago. However, my involvement with Firebug Studios will probably put me back into that category once the company releases a product... so I guess there's no reason to chop it off for the time being.

2. All of their comments should be considered the views of the company the represent. I have seen a few that state that their views do not represent the view of company X. IMHO, if you are going to make public statements and you are affiliated with a vendor, your words should be considered as the opinion of that vendor. You really can't have it both ways. You are either here for business purposes are private purposes, not both.

Absolutely NOT. The second I cannot have an opinion is the second I leave this forum. I'm also a customer for almost every addon company out there and have spent thousands of dollars over the years on addons. I refuse to not talk about the addons I have and ask questions about those I don't.

Disclaimer: I am not a 'commercial member' but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once!

:( All of this being said, I wouldn't miss the tag. There are plenty of other forums where they don't put us into groups and we all get along (for the most part). If anything, it causes animosity among members.

Absolutely NOT. The second I cannot have an opinion is the second I leave this forum. I'm also a customer for almost every addon company out there and have spent thousands of dollars over the years on addons. I refuse to not talk about the addons I have and ask questions about those I don't.

You are entitled to your opinion as much as I am. However, to put it like someone else stated. If you were at an airport and talking to a chief pilot about the industry and what other airlines are doing, and he decides to blast another carrier, what would you think? Whether we like it or not, when we associate ourselves with a company, we represent that company. Look at any airline accident. The whole airline is branded in a bad form because ONE crew did something wrong. Questions arise as to how the crew was trained and other questions to that affect will be raised, When one has a uniform or something to affiliate them with a company then they REPRESENT the said company. Just like that one crew's bad luck or mistake that could tarnish an airline, ONE person can tarnish a company by what was said or written. We have laws that protect that in the states. Libel and slander aren't a good thing even if it was your own personal pov. On the flip side, If you and that pilot were at lunch somewhere just shooting the breeze, then his pov would be taken as his and not as his company's. If the crew had had an accident when they where flying for fun on the weekend by themselves then it would have not come back to the airline.If you dont want to be affiliated with a company then post a disclaimer at the bottom or top of your thread or post and say that that is your own pov.Its that simple. I work at a certain restaurant and I like out main competitor's food more than our's. When I am not at work and people ask me for my opinion i'll tell them what my personal opinion is. However, you will never ever hear or see me say ANYTHING to any of our customers about what my personal opinions are. You have to have respect for your company so take the time to post a disclaimer of some sort. Do it for YOU and NOT for other people. Save YOUR butt so you dont get squashed later.

If you dont want to be affiliated with a company then post a disclaimer at the bottom or top of your thread or post and say that that is your own pov.Its that simple. I work at a certain restaurant and I like out main competitor's food more than our's. When I am not at work and people ask me for my opinion i'll tell them what my personal opinion is. However, you will never ever hear or see me say ANYTHING to any of our customers about what my personal opinions are. You have to have respect for your company so take the time to post a disclaimer of some sort. Do it for YOU and NOT for other people. Save YOUR butt so you dont get squashed later.

Having to go out of your way to state that you can have an opinion is as bad as not having one period. I'll keep quiet if members can't have opinions here.No other forum I'm a member of acts like this around "developers", or any members for that matter. :(P.S. Is there a copy of the TOS agreement somewhere where we can read it? Just curious.

Sorry folks, but this seems ( IMHO ) to be much ado about nothing. The only transgression I could foresee would be blatant advertising and I haven't noticed that even once. As a developer, past or present, their experience and point of view is of great value to the FS community. Opinions are allowed. Individuals who cruise the forums like sharks looking for, developers, products, and members to bash, flame, or otherwise berate only to enhance their own ego are the real problem. You all know what I'm talking about and have probably been on the receiving end of that at one time. So I say let the commercial members have their say just like everyone else, as is currently the case. From what I have experienced I like them a lot better than I like the 'sharks' anyway!As I have stated, and others have stated, were it not for the developers (freeware and commercial) we most likely would not have this forum, this web site or this hobby.Best regards and happy holidays to all,Mel

Sorry folks, but this seems ( IMHO ) to be much ado about nothing. The only transgression I could foresee would be blatant advertising and I haven't noticed that even once. As a developer, past or present, their experience and point of view is of great value to the FS community. Opinions are allowed. Individuals who cruise the forums like sharks looking for, developers, products, and members to bash, flame, or otherwise berate only to enhance their own ego are the real problem. You all know what I'm talking about and have probably been on the receiving end of that at one time. So I say let the commercial members have their say just like everyone else, as is currently the case. From what I have experienced I like them a lot better than I like the 'sharks' anyway!As I have stated, and others have stated, were it not for the developers (freeware and commercial) we most likely would not have this forum, this web site or this hobby.Best regards and happy holidays to all,Mel

Well said Mel. Agree wholeheartedly. Merry Christmas to you too. I would have thought the issue that McCrash and others are concerned about ie blatant advertising and company self interest would be self moderated by other developers on the forum who wouldn't let one company get a leg up. And if that turned in to an advertising fest between developers then the mods would step in and hammer the offenders.Nevertheless, MCrash brings up a good point though that is worth raising every once in a while, just like its a good idea to check your insurance policy once a year to see if anything is missing. Indeed, his post has resulted in someone raising the question of the continuing validity of the 'Commercial Member' tag. This may warrant a bit of behind close doors discussion among admin and mods to see if indeed it is absolutely essential to retain such a distinction. Being a relative newbie here, I have no idea of its origins but as is the case with so many policies, it may have been instigated as a solution to a problem that no longer exists. We all remember Phil Taylor. He carried a BIG logo (or actually did he?) yet I think most of us were able to distinguish between what his personal opinion was and what was policy of Aces/Microsoft. His contribution was outstanding as is many developers and I am personally grateful for the access to their product knowledge and the general expertise in this hobby that their presence on this forum brings. And, like some of the developers have mentioned, they are hobbyists too. Of course they should be allowed to comment as such. In addition I think most of the developers out there and some of the mods, are aware of the dual hats they may sometimes have to wear and adjust their comments accordingly. Bottom line: I do question the 'commercial member' tag since I think it sets up a kind of them and us situation, but if the mods believe it's still a necessary tool then so be it. Terry

Personally I love the "commercial" tag.Why?History.. I am an avid fan of history and believe that if all were a lot of problems would be solved.Now I know this doesn't apply to anyone today but there was a time when a commercial developer would come to the forums with a screen name and flood it with posts raving about a new product (happened to be theirs) or trashing a competitors product.It was extremely hard looking at a made up screen name to figure out if this poster was a legit user, or a self serving developer-it still can be-we had a similar puzzle only last week to figure out.Having the screen label takes care of this. It also gives perspective to a post. If product "a" comes out and user xbtda is continually defending it or trashing it-knowing this user is a developer or was in fact involved with the product is helpful.Now I know other websites don't do this. Part of the reason I have always spent my time only here. We take a lot of trouble to try to make sure things are on the up an up here.

Good point on Phil Taylor - you could always tell his personal vs. professional postings... even if he sometimes spiced up his professional ones with a little color commentary.

And it really seems to limit what we can say and how people interpret what we say.

I'm not a commercial member, so I can't speak to how it 'limits' someone from speaking, but I can certainly agree that it does influence the interpretations of things said. One thing I didn't know was that the commercial member tag was applied more at the request of AVSIM, rather than at the request of the forum participant. That changes the scenario a bit in my mind, because it may not be the member who is asking to advertise the fact they are commercially aligned.If AVSIM prefers that commercial members be identified in order to retain a semblance of transparency, then that is a good and just reason. From a forum participants view, however, it does put a slightly higher onus on that member to comport themselves in a professional, measured fashion - especially if they have their commercial association published in their postings. (signature banners, etc.) I don't think it's much ado about nothing, but it's certainly not a crisis needing remediation right now. The AVSIM forums have always been the go-to location for conversation, assistance, and entertainment in the flight simulator world... and its reputation is not at risk from this.If anything, this thread will bring some further knowledge of what the commercial member tag actually reflects and how people got it, which can go a long way to helping interpretations. -G(Edited slightly for better composition of thoughts)

I have read this thread with interest and after pondering it a while, I thought I should respond.Why did we implement the

While the intent of the 'commercial member' group is altruistic... the actual results are far, far removed from that idyllic paradise.In a great many topics in these forums I've seen people who are 'commercial members' be literally attacked simply because they posted. The content of the post mattered not, it was the audacity of a 'commercial member' thinking they too have a voice and/or opinion on matters. I've watched where users of AVSIM literally gang up on a 'commercial member', piling misrepresentation upon mistruth upon flat out lie upon insult. Commercial members can't even come close to behaving that way, yet you have a core group of AVSIM members who seem to consistently weave back and forth across the 'line'. They are extremely adept at tossing out the slam in a fashion that's still clearly a slam... yet keeping it close enough to the 'line' that nothing is done about it... even if the 'Report' button is hit.If a 'commercial member' attempts to clear things up... they get attacked... repeatedly.I just saw a thread about another 'commercial member's product... where once again someone posted in the thread nothing but pure negative vitriol. They're not even a customer of the product... they just went way out of their way to say what they think about the product they didn't purchase. They posted increasingly negative statements in that thread. Yet they don't even own the product.This is the type of behavior a 'commercial member' gets to endure. There's no honor in being a punching bag.

The commercial member tag was never solicited. It is made at the discretion of the Avsim Staff and it is designed to recognize commercial members who may overstep in a promotional way as Geof pointed out.By the way, the OP, and many others here seems to be in violation of the terms of use by not including both first and last names.A reread of the Terms of Use at the top of the forums may be in order. Note that no one is allowed more than one account.That would preclude use of a commercial and a civilian tag.The restriction on commercial "promotional" activity can be understood but I see nothing there about commercial tags except that the staff has some discretion in the matter. I've never objected to the commercial tag but have observed that it often causes rancour as in the title of this thread."I'm starting to dislike commercial developers" speaks volumes doesn't it? This is not news folks.Like Geof, we have been around long enough to observe changes in the so called "community" and folks it ain't what it used to be. A look back at the commercial product releases over 24 months will quickly reveal the fact that many users do not "like" commercial developers or their products. The current FSD Jet thread is a perfect example of this sort of behaviour.In addition, we must now walk a thin line in supporting fellow "commercial members" against what begins to feel like an onslought. I agree with Ed that there is no honor in being a punching bag.There is a segment of this "community" who've been allowed to run roughshod on their "flavor of the week" commercial entities or products and have no regard for how their behaviour effects fellow simmers or the growth of the hobby.Look back a bit further to the FSX release to get a true picture of how "non commercial" members feel they should behave towards "commercial entities" like Microsoft.While it is not directly related, it is possible that the behaviour of the "non commercial" members here and other places may have been a small contributing factor in their decison to abandon the franchise.Finally, allow me to say that "commercial members" are not the the proximate cause of what ails this "community" :(