What have you been prevented from saying here in the forums due to your commercial status? With the exception of advertising, which is an issue I rarely encounter here, what has a commercial member said that has been deleted/hidden?

It's rarely been a case of what I can or cannot say. Were that so I wouldn't have nearly 6.5k posts, eh? :( However, it surely means something that several years ago I averaged 6 posts/day here......these days my average is more like 6 posts/week.

It's rarely been a case of what I can or cannot say. Were that so I wouldn't have nearly 7k posts, eh? :( However, it surely means something that several years ago I averaged 6 posts/day here......these days my average is more like 6 posts/week.

Why? Is it members who are turning you off, or the rules here at AVSIM. If it's members, that's one thing, but if it's the rules, than I take issue with the complaint because the only rule that I've ever had to enforce against commercial members is in regards to blatant advertising, and 99.99% of the time it's from brand new, mostly unknown developers.

If you all really want ot end this problem, go out and go fly for real. If you already do then we can agree that it is SOOOO much more fun than on FSX or FS9. :( If you dont fly. Go out and spend the money that you spend on these add-ons to get a real rating. The sense of accomplishment one can get from passiong a checkride will be leaps and bounds over the sense of accomplishment of flying a virtual jet.

Perfect example... you are incorrect. Eaglesoft suggests nothing. I believe it, with years of experience on the internet to back my belief. I am a person, not a business.My suspicion is that you are a commercial developer in hiding.

Very well then, Ron Hamilton and Ed Hamilton who are connected with Eaglesoft suggest that those of us who use User Names only violate AVSIM's Terms of Use and want to hide who are and tend to have a hidden agenda.Your suspicions are baseless because I am not, and never have been a commercial developer, nor had any connection with one.

Actually, the "rules" I agreed to have changed considerably over the years I've been a member here.While I can see merit in the idea of having the "Commercial Member" category, as others have stated (sometimes quite eloquently), from the POV of the "Commercial Member," the reality of it is more akin to being forced to wear a Scarlet Letter......or as was the case in medieval Italy, being required to wear only yellow shoes. :( As for the suggestion a few have made about the inclusion of a "disclaimer," that too is essentially useless......since it rarely gets read. I've always signed my posts here (and elsewhere) with at least my first name "Bill," yet almost without exception folks will address me as "n4gix" (which is my amateur radio callsign - not my name)... :( Ninety-nine percent of my posts over the past decade or so have been totally unrelated to my work for Eaglesoft, yet I am forced to wear this Scarlet Letter I never asked for...I've always viewed this as a solution in search of a problem. :(

As I pm'ed another developer today-it has never occured to me that the status "commercial" would be anything but a badge of respect. I have always had the highest regard for those who develop for the sim, and have always considered a privledge to count such developers as contributing members. I guess I am hopelessly naive...

That is true. Eaglesoft suggests that those of us who use User Names only violate AVSIM's Terms of Use and want to hide who are and tend to have a hidden agenda.

Again, I personally suggested that users review the terms of use. Eaglesoft did not.See how easy it is to misunderstand a personal post if you wear a commercial member tag and a Company Signature?I personally said "seems to be in violation" not were in violation.It's really easy to determine those who have an agenda against commercial devs in general and Eaglesoft specifically.Truth is that many of those do have an agenda whether the use screenames or real names.The crux of the matter is that there is longstanding antagonizm between commercial developers and the customer base.This is true in any retail business where customers seek best value for the dollar spent.I personally believe that FS Customer antagonizm is driven by the fact that some commercial entities do not offer a 30 Day Refund.This contributes to overly cautious purchase decisons and users attempting to screen others from an an unpleasant experience.From an objective viewpoint, let's take this a step or two forward.Commercial FS Developers operate on basic retail practice. That is to say, they simply offer FS Content for sale. Purchase decisions are made by potential customers who are under no compulsion or stress to push the purchase button.We made the deliberate decision to not only offer FS Content for sale but to offer a 30 Day Refund option to ease the stress that some may feel prior to purchase.At the end of day we fail to see why such and approach should garner so much negativity, especially from those who do not even own the product.

Very well then, Ron Hamilton and Ed Hamilton who are connected with Eaglesoft suggest that those of us who use User Names only violate AVSIM's Terms of Use and want to hide who are and tend to have a hidden agenda.Your suspicions are baseless because I am not, and never have been a commercial developer, nor had any connection with one.

Whom would that be?

...it has never occured to me that the status "commercial" would be anything but a badge of respect. I guess I am hopelessly naive...

I guess you are Geoff. That makes two of us.Terry

Again, I personally suggested that users review the terms of use. Eaglesoft did not.See how easy it is to misunderstand a personal post if you wear a commercial member tag and a Company Signature?I personally said "seems to be in violation" not were in violation.It's really easy to determine those who have an agenda against commercial devs in general and Eaglesoft specifically.Truth is that many of those do have an agenda whether the use screenames or real names.The crux of the matter is that there is longstanding antagonizm between commercial developers and the customer base.This is true in any retail business where customers seek best value for the dollar spent.I personally believe that FS Customer antagonizm is driven by the fact that some commercial entities do not offer a 30 Day Refund.This contributes to overly cautious purchase decisons and users attempting to screen others from an an unpleasant experience.From an objective viewpoint, let's take this a step or two forward.Commercial FS Developers operate on basic retail practice. That is to say, they simply offer FS Content for sale. Purchase decisions are made by potential customers who are under no compulsion or stress to push the purchase button.We made the deliberate decision to not only offer FS Content for sale but to offer a 30 Day Refund option to ease the stress that some may feel prior to purchase.At the end of day we fail to see why such and approach should garner so much negativity, especially from those who do not even own the product.

I agree 100% that there's not much room to complain when a 30 day refund policy is in place. Be nice to test drive a B55 and G58 under those terms :( .

I've seen baseless attacks on Eaglesoft and others. I've also noticed that Eaglesoft posters in particular are very quick to meet criticism with accusations of the poster having an agenda, even in cases where it is obvious to an uninterested observer that it clearly isn't the case.I think the moderators here do a fair job of balancing things.

First, we agree that the mods here are doing a good job given the tools and discretion they have at their disposal.Some have even jeopordized their positions while attempting to "level the playing field" here.We respond because we know those who have an agenda. For us it is not speculation but fact.In addition, we have no intention of being a "doormat" for those who bash, trash, or otherwise denigrate us for sport. :(

I agree 100% that there's not much room to complain when a 30 day refund policy is in place. Be nice to test drive a B55 and G58 under those terms :( .

Ha ha, If we only had two more crews we could acommodate. :(

I agree 100% that there's not much room to complain when a 30 day refund policy is in place. Be nice to test drive a B55 and G58 under those terms :( .

There is, however, room to share product impressions and discuss pros and cons. That, after all, is one of the purposes of a having a flightsim discussion forum. Some individuals who both have a "commercial" status and a company signature seem very eager to put a stop to this, unless the views shared happen to be 100% favorable.

As I pm'ed another developer today-it has never occured to me that the status "commercial" would be anything but a badge of respect. I have always had the highest regard for those who develop for the sim, and have always considered a privledge to count such developers as contributing members. I guess I am hopelessly naive...

I'm here with you Geoff because I have respect for every body that develops freeware / payware / But also the forums the moderators actually everyone that is contributing to get the most out of our beloved hobby. (it's still a labour of love)We all enjoy and have the passion for aviation and always have had a large community and sharing things we made (freeware) or ideas etc...to the OP; Why in earth would you dislike someone that either is a commercial member or a fellow flight simmer.Hence we all have those days that your comment isn't the luckiest due to your own mind state I have had those and made my apology too...It's said due to demands and attitude in general people are quiting this hobby, in my book you can have always a difference in opinion and as long your posting in the spirit of the home (forum rules) and be polite.I've seen in our own freeware group where the demands go out to be such unrealistic that a few members just decide to stop.I'm here to help and share my experience and opnions with my fellow simmers as I always did.Hence If I can help one simmer out there to have the day of his life I'm happy.Nothing to hide just honest opinions and no need for anything else, because quality work finds it's way to the community by itself ;-)The only rule I have now for myself is that I try to stay out of topics regarding a simular product but that's about it.Also don't forget that not every member is a speaking native English person (so you will always have the culture and language barrier)In general I find it polite to sign a post with your name just common courtesy which I have done since my first visit here :-)Disclaimer; lol as always this my own opinion (nothing changed) as fellow simmer with experience of different fields of aviation or development.Have fun guys and just enjoy simulation and what will be developed freeware / or payware.Cheers,

I don't actually understand what this all complaining is about. Since now I thought it's rather privilege to be a 'commercial member'.Will removing "commercial memeber" info really change anything? I doubt that. Commercial members usually have some information in their sig that tells who they are and for which company they mostly works. For advertising, self promotion, other reasons. For an example all members of Eaglesoft team have such information, Ron has big "Team Eaglesoft" banner that really doesn't help in blending in the crowd as a simple flight sim enthusiast. :)Anyway, it's also almost immediately visible "who is who from" the comments developers make about their own models, write in first person about their work, or when they provide customer support. This community is small enough that most people that are here for a while know exactly who is who and who did what. So it can't be about identification, because developers identify themselves without extra help.And when it comes to commenting other people work as a developer - that's a difficult thing. I remember I had an argument not so long ago with Eaglesoft team because I commented some technical aspect of their work and identified myself as a developer. It wasn't ill-intended comment, but in the heated atmosphere of that thread it was taken as another personal attack and probably classified as another folk who has an agenda :( I was told by Eaglesoft people that there's a 'golden rule' that developers should not comment other dev's work and I've should remain silent and let them do the work the way they like. That's fair rule and I agree, especially when it comes to complaining about something or mentioning your product when another similar is discussed. Like it or not, such comments will never be taken lightly unless everyone thinks you are normal customer, and that's impossible in long term on a big forum like this.

There's an awful lot of developers responding here that haven't been "yellowed" yet...:(

There is, however, room to share product impressions and discuss pros and cons. That, after all, is one of the purposes of a having a flightsim discussion forum. Some individuals who both have a "commercial" status and a company signature seem very eager to put a stop to this, unless the views shared happen to be 100% favorable.

Tom, to be very frank, we've never opposed objective discussion on relative merits of our products.What we do oppose is the piling on all commercial developers.Go back 24 months to every commercial FS release whether us or our fellow commercial devs and observe the behaviour of "non commercial members" and I'm sure you'll see a pattern that is distinctly unhealthy for the FS Community as a whole. :(