FS2004 Show Stoppers

[MadDog 353]

Chris,Thanks for info. It's reassuring to know that (unlike FS2K), hardware upgrades will improve performance with this version. I expect to receive my new system on Friday:P4 3.0GHZ (800MHz FSB)1 GB Dual Channel PC-3200 DDR SDRAMGF FX5900 Ultra (256 MB)Audigy 2Win XP Proetc.,etc.,etc.I know the extra video ram isn't going to do that much for FS - but it can't hurt :-). I'll be sure to keep everybody advised on my performance with this "monster".John,Thanks for being honest and up-front. I hope you don't think my post was aimed at you - If I have to point fingers, I'll point at Hornit for stopping by to say he was getting stutters on a P4 2.8 using a pre-gold beta without doing a lot of testing... you can see how that has the potential to be misleading. My only other issue was the statement that the stutters were "FS2000ish" - which this thread has revealed NOT to be the case. That's the main reason I posted. You have to understand that I disliked FS2000 more than any other flightsim in recent memory because you could throw all kinds of hardware at it and it would still stutter constantly. I'll bet if I load that beast up on my P4 - the darn program would still stutter! MS fixed that problem with 2K2 and I would be much less than thrilled if they broke it again with 2K4. Anyway, now that things are clearer - I want to thank you again for removing the rose-colored glasses and being truthful about hardware/performance issues. It's definately better to know about them now than be 'surprised' by them on July 26.Regards,Marc

[Guest]

Yeah, and I'll second all of what Marc has said here. This thread was one I found extremely helpful as almost every post here added something useful to the mix, even if it was opposite what the previous poster had said. In the end, we all won on this one, and I appreciate the comments from everyone.Marc, I bought almost the exact same system as you :-). I went for the ATI 9800 256 board and so far am going with the on-board intel sound board. If you have any thoughts on the on-board sound vs. the Audigy, I'd be happy to hear them as I can still order the Audigy if necessary before the unit is actually put together.Thanks for all this guys. This was a terrific thread!Glenn

[Guest JonP01]

>"John, I bet the sure fire way to get rid of stutters is more>RAM">>Been there, done that. The stutters seem entirely independent>on the amount of free RAM remaining on the machine--and based>on usage stats, FS2004 isn't using all that's available on my>system (it did prior to my last upgrade, however). The>stutters are even independent of the RAM on the vid card--they>were present on my 64 Meg GeF/2, a 128 meg Radeon 9200, and my>current GeF/4 (also 128 meg). I believe they are simply>caused by some changes in priority to the sim vs. FS2002. And>considering the tradeoff in superior graphics quality, I can't>say I am disappointed.>>Also, the nature of them is different than FS2000. In FS2000,>you'd throw the aircraft into a hard bank, and there they'd>be. In FS2004, they happen only periodically, such as when>new clouds are first drawn into a scene, or new textures. >Avoiding view switches helps somewhat.Hi John,I am just wondering if you have tried adjusting the video bandwidth parameter in the .cfg file in order to reduce these stutters?

[John_Cillis 2,406]

If I were to lock my fps to 20, I would not see the stutters.... But for me, that is unrealistically low.As for wiping a hard disk--as mentioned before, I'm a WAN admin and I also direct our workstation support. Wiping a hard disk is the most overblown "solution" thrown about, and I hate to say it, but it is usually a failure of understanding the basics any tech should know. I'm not trying to belittle your advice. You mention defragging, which is a good idea--I'm just saying I know how to maintain my own system and others. If my team went around wiping our execs' systems everytime they fouled something up (and being execs, they do :) ), we'd be out of a job. And for me, FS2002 would be fouled up as well, along with other apps. Mine is a stable system. I've left FS running by accident for two weeks--and it was still running when I returned home. Pretty good going for 98SE, but I know how to manage it.So I'm not going to start from scratch just to get it back to the point it is today. It got that way because I know what I'm doing.My suggestion: raise your lock to unlimited, and set yourself up at KMFR, runway 14, with a light 1/8's cumulus layer at about 5000 ft. Take off in any of the jets, look to the right. Shortly after takeoff (about the same time you fly over the south threshold), you will see the fps falter for 3-5 seconds, then they will go back to normal. They may not fall to my fps level--yours is a faster system. But they will fall for a sec. And this has been reported by some of my peers also involved in testing--this is what I'm talking about.-JohnEdit: I should mention Chris, don't think of this as a "defect" with either FS2004 or a system that needs to be solved. It may very well be an improvement. My peers in the test who have reported these issues with gold have systems similar to mine, and display preferences similar to mine. None of them are really whining about the issue--but they are giving feedback on it. By giving feedback here upfront, and letting people know that in spite of this, 98SE and a sub 1GHZ system can still make for a happy FS2004 user (and I AM :) ), I think people will be able to focus on the nearly 100 pct. perfection I think the sim achieved vs. its goals...

[Guest]

"I've left FS running by accident for two weeks--and it was still running when I returned home. " :-lol :-lol :-lolDoing more fuel endurance tests are we???? :-hah.Glenn

[Azapata87 173]

hi,Any beta testers running fs2004 on Windows 2000 pro SP4? If so how does it run? Andrew

[Chris Willis 8]

Hi John, "My suggestion: raise your lock to unlimited, and set yourself up at KMFR, runway 14, with a light 1/8's cumulus layer at about 5000 ft. Take off in any of the jets, look to the right. Shortly after takeoff (about the same time you fly over the south threshold), you will see the fps falter for 3-5 seconds, then they will go back to normal. They may not fall to my fps level--yours is a faster system. But they will fall for a sec. And this has been reported by some of my peers also involved in testing--this is what I'm talking about."-Raise your lock to unlimited-KMFR, runway 14-1/8's cumulus layer at about 5000 ft-look to the right.-look to the left.I have do that's 5 time turn the learjet aircraft view, right, left, I did not see any stutters, I will retry again, the lowest frame was was 20 fps but no stutters, and this was all fs2004 at FULL slider details to right, except aircraft/scenery shadows.The frame rate overall in fs2004 will drop on certains view anywhere in fs2004, depend on the complexity of the slider details, clouds and certains view, but no stutters with my system. The performance is really similar to fs2002 but with my new system, not the system I was using for fs2002 before. Only the clouds will take more frame rate on some special situation like many clouds layers, then fs2002 because of the amount of clouds and the constant calculation from the 3d clouds x, y, z. Autogen will hit harder on fps at full slider to right then fs2002 also because of the 2x amount of the 3d object.ThanksChris Willis[link:fsw.simflight.com/FSWMenuFsSim.html]Clouds And Addons For MsFs

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Chris---When I am talking about stutters, I'm talking about fps falling... I think we're having an issue with terms... When I'm crusing along at 25fps, and then my fps drops to 20 for 5 seconds with no difference in scenery detail, that kills fluidity--to me, that is a stutter. Others view stutters as pauses, although the fps counter stays consistent. Different issue, and one I am not seeing in the sim.Stick to the params of the test... Just watch your fps as you look to the right, and only to the right, and tell me if it stays fluid with NO dropoff in fps. Also, turn off Autogen and AI--things like that will limit your fps and you won't be able to see what I'm talking about... You can reset them after the test...

[Chris Willis 8]

Hi John, I was thinking you are talking about the pause in the sim, and like you have said there is no "pause stutters" in fs2004.I have done two test:All fs2004 at full except Ai traffic disable, autogen disable, shadows disabled, weather display ultra high ms setting default, mesh at 85% with 3rd party add-ons-Raise your lock to unlimited-KMFR, runway 14-1/8's cumulus layer at about 5000 ft -look to the right.-NO Ai traffic-No AutogenStarting the runway at 37/36 fps-look to the right all the time fixed view.Still 37/36 fps no dropsAfter passing the airports and generic texture now are below the aircraft,the left view fixed, the frame still 37/36 and frame rate reduce when you pass through clouds on some view after.2 test: Same thing from above but with Clear sky, (no clouds)Starting the runway at 37/36 fps-look to the right all the time.Still 37/36 fps no dropsAfter passing the airports and generic texture now are below the aircraft, the frame jump between 75 and 80 fps.When I have done the 5 time test before, learjet aircraft view, right, left, the lowest frame was 20 fps, but the frame rate was dropping`like a flash, "when you close your eyes" (below then a half of second) quicly jump to 25/30 like before when fs2004 was at FULL slider details to right, except aircraft/scenery shadows disabling.From what's I have seen, lower system will suffer more on frame rate drop then mid and highers, but there is no such as stutters pause or anything near fs2000 engine stutters. With my new system:The frame rate drop is identique to fs2002 on some area and view, only with the clouds which require more power will drop and autogen at full right. But in general I did not see any special change on this area about the frame rate drop on some situation and view depend on the scenery details etc. It is very similar to fs2002 but with my new system. I think these things on latest frequency bus,ram type agp, processor will help.Even if I can have more then 20 fps, I still lock my fps to 20 and get very fluid frame rate.ThanksChris Willis[link:fsw.simflight.com/FSWMenuFsSim.html]Clouds And Addons For MsFs

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"After passing the airports and generic texture now are below the aircraft,the left view fixed, the frame still 37/36 and frame rate reduce when you pass through clouds on some view after."Sounds like you're seeing something close to what I observed--the drop with the clouds. But the fps then jumps back up... Under clear skies, no issue....What's interesting Chris, is the drops don't coorrespond to any extra detail. What I think may be happening is when clouds or buildings are drawn, even out of the frame (view), the sim is using cpu cycles and that's causing fps to fall. I did not see that in FS2002 but for an instant and even then, only around big cities. You might remember one of the rather rash things I tried. I stripped FS2004 of all scenery other than ground textures--no airports, no buildings...nothing (I did this by cutting everything but the first two scenery.cfg entries). I still saw a significant slowdown in fps with the light cumulus, always in the same spot--about over the southern threshold of runway 14 (well, where it should be since I removed the airport in that specific test). Then the fps would pick back up. That I've never seen in FS2002. The reason I call them stutters, is the slowdown isn't instant. It lasts for the length of time it takes you to fly through the area. It's not a pause--but the fluidity loss is similar to FS2000's hesitation in turns. Unlike FS2000, it's a temp issue. 90 pct of the flight time is without it. With my test "region"--I've zipped through it at 400kts, and the slowdown is over in an instant. I've flown through it in the Microlight, and it lasts for a moment.No one will notice this if they lock their fps down to a 15-20 range, I think. But one of the reason I scale my sliders back is so I can enjoy more fluid flight. As I've said, you can't blame systems. Our peers with all ranges of systems have seen this in the gold release.Want to know something really crazy though--without AI or Autogen and clear skies, I'm getting 35-37 fps looking right, everything else maxed. What's with that? Your system should be running rings around mine, and we both have 4200's now. Is the vid card more of a major player now?BTW, I haven't thanked you for taking so much time to discuss this as you have. It's good to have an extra set of eyes, and it's good for the forum to see how we work through issues without taking shots at each other--you've always been one of the best examples of that and I aspire to achieve the same...

[Guest JonP01]

John,Firstly have you tried reducing the video bandwidth setting in the cfg file? And secondly, have you moved the 3D cloud slider all the way to the left so as to have 2D clouds only? Given that you say there is no problem in clear skies, I would have thought that turning 3D clouds completely off would be the only way of comparing the "efficiency" of the FS2002 engine to that of FS2004.

[Chris Willis 8]

Hi John, "Want to know something really crazy though--without AI or Autogen and clear skies, I'm getting 35-37 fps looking right, everything else maxed. What's with that? Your system should be running rings around mine, and we both have 4200's now. Is the vid card more of a major player now?"I have all these http://www.simviation.com/terrain.htm installed All Orlando Sotomayor mesh and some othersAt gound 36 fps, but when I leaving the ground, I got near 75/80 fps after, With clear sky (no clouds), No Autogen and no AI traffic.With autogen and AI Traffic at full, clouds ultra high setting, but detailed clouds slider to full slider at the bottom, 1 cumulus layer 1/8, at 5000 feet, I got near 25 fps at the begenning of the KMFR runways learjet not moving, fixed right view all the time, lear jet starting moving fps jump to 35fps, the lear jet climb still 35fps, aircraft is below generic texture now at the ground no airports, fps drop to 25 near the clouds after.The reasons why the frame drop it was because of the clouds constant rendering the clouds in the sky, but still smooth. I am sure using the same fs2002 sprite clouds weather engine, the frame will not drop like this, but remove all the details/spec/feature of the weather engine which will be not acceptable to me, one of the most missing things on previous Msfs was the weather/sky/environment. I don`t care about these lost, when in the near futur the computer system will be much more power full than what`s we have, this is the reason we still don`t have the particle inside the clouds, we will have more major frame rate hit. One thing we have to deal with it, each time we want new feature, the fps will drop, ms are implementing feature according to the actual system capability and check which is acceptable feature to implement for frame rate hit, and they figure how Msfs will be after 1 years of the release which new system capability and which feature will be optimized to run at incredible details with the new system available in the market, this is the reason sometime we have always to upgrade the system, specialy for 2 years product.My system will be already low end after 1 years compare to the system market. ThanksChris Willis[link:fsw.simflight.com/FSWMenuFsSim.html]Clouds And Addons For MsFs

[John_Cillis 2,406]

The video bandwidth made no difference (it's a great setting, btw). Even 2-d clouds seem to trouble it, and, I'm sorry to say both the 2-d cloud option and the alternate simple cloud option is worse than the default clouds in FS2002.If I turn 3-d clouds totally off, it's still hard to compare the two sims. That's because "normal" scenery in FS2004 equals "dense" scenery in FS2002. That's why I aliased my FS2002 scenery to FS2004 in one of my tests. Clouds of any type still challenge it--but only in odd moments. 90 pct of the time, I can fly through a 1/8ths cumulus deck, all 3-d, and get 25fps or 30 (depends on my lock). I think the fps falloff may be related to the transition from one weather station to the next, and/or, the drawing of clouds in the scene. Since FS2004 uses a radius of clouds that is user definable, what I think may be happening, is there are moments when clouds get dropped from this radius and others are added. It may be this that's causing the issue. It's so dang subtle, that it happens and you say "how's that again?"

[Chris Willis 8]

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