Flying Cheap

[CYXR 257]

link below:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/fl...tm_source=feedsquoted from Frontline's website:Program DescriptionOne year after the deadly airline crash of Continental 3407 in Buffalo, NY, FRONTLINE investigates the accident and discovers a dramatically changed airline industry, where regional carriers now account for half of the nation's daily departures. The rise of the regionals and arrival of low-cost carriers have been a huge boon to consumers, and the industry insists that the skies remain safe. But many insiders are worried that now, 30 years after airline deregulation, the aviation system is being stretched beyond its capacity to deliver service that is both cheap and safe.ben

[gman! 1]

link below:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/fl...tm_source=feedsquoted from Frontline's website:Program DescriptionOne year after the deadly airline crash of Continental 3407 in Buffalo, NY, FRONTLINE investigates the accident and discovers a dramatically changed airline industry, where regional carriers now account for half of the nation's daily departures. The rise of the regionals and arrival of low-cost carriers have been a huge boon to consumers, and the industry insists that the skies remain safe. But many insiders are worried that now, 30 years after airline deregulation, the aviation system is being stretched beyond its capacity to deliver service that is both cheap and safe.ben

Very interesting. I will be definitely be watching this. I want to become a commercial pilot very badly but now the industry is inflated with too many pilots and low fare airlines making it one of the most competitive and low paying starting jobs in the US (I was talking about it previously here: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=271784&hl= ). I hope the program that the USA is making to make college cheaper or free (I can't remember which) will come into effect soon, because being a pilot would be great, but paying for a degree and flight training is expensive, and I am not what you would call "rich" (It has taught me to be grateful for what I have). I hope this program brings attention to many Americans and airlines because many aspiring pilots dreams have been broken.----------------------------I think the FAA should enforce stronger rules, because it seems like the Airliners don't give a damn and simply don't care. The pilots of the flight failed multiple checkrides, and they didn't even know the basics of flying, such as the instrument scan (they didn't monitor airspeed), recovering from a stall (the pilot pulled up in a stall, who the #$#@ does that), they reduced power in the stall (... ridiculous), the co-pilot was texting before the flight and during the flight the pilots talked about nothing pertaining to the flight, the did not follow the sterile cockpit rules under 10,000, and they did so much more incorrectly. The Airlines need to rethink how the train, and keep their CFIs, instructors or whatever in check.People must understand that even low cost flights are great, most of them end up in the pilot being hurt economically, and mentally. They receive low pays, and feel unappreciated for what they do, and get a tremendous amount of pressure and stress put on them. The co-pilot on the Buffalo flight was payed $16,000 a year, which is about the amount my local supermarket pays! The pilot also had a 2nd job at a coffee shop to accommodate for paying for training and had to travel a great distance from the west to east coast to arrive at her job. If you ask me that is pretty stressful. I bet the probably feel unmotivated. People and Airlines need to understand that sometimes you just have to pay the full price. If the jobs the passengers had, had low prices on their products/services too, how would they survive?

[JohnFromCO 15]

Very interesting. I will be definitely be watching this. I want to become a commercial pilot very badly but now the industry is inflated with too many pilots and low fare airlines making it one of the most competitive and low paying starting jobs in the US (I was talking about it previously here: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=271784&hl= ). I hope the program that the USA is making to make college cheaper or free (I can't remember which) will come into effect soon, because being a pilot would be great, but paying for a degree and flight training is expensive, and I am not what you would call "rich" (It has taught me to be grateful for what I have). I hope this program brings attention to many Americans and airlines because many aspiring pilots dreams have been broken.

You can't blame regionals for making the job more competitive or popular. Being a pilot was always a job that people admired, in fact regional airlines have made the dream a possibility for more. If it wasn't for the regionals the airlines would be almost exclusively ex-military like in the past. Also the regionals made it where you can get on with 1000tt or less. Back in 1999 I remember CFI's with 2000TT and 500ME not getting hired by regionals. What people forget is the airlines have always paid lower salaries for new pilots as a pay your dues. I remember a DE telling me of his start with Texas International and getting paid a quarter of the Capt salary for the first year. The airlines spend tremendous amounts of money to train the fresh FO's and need to write that off. You got 1000's of current pilots who operate in the majors and regionals who owe thousands upon thousands in loans for college or flight training. So I wouldn't expect the Govt to pay your way through Riddle/UND/Kent etc. You want to be a pilot you find a way. It is the way it was and always will be. If you don't want a student loan then look at the military. Historically that is the only way to get a college degree for free then fly in the airlines.

I think the FAA should enforce stronger rules, because it seems like the Airliners don't give a damn and simply don't care. The pilots of the flight failed multiple checkrides, and they didn't even know the basics of flying, such as the instrument scan (they didn't monitor airspeed), recovering from a stall (the pilot pulled up in a stall, who the #$#@ does that), they reduced power in the stall (... ridiculous), the co-pilot was texting before the flight and during the flight the pilots talked about nothing pertaining to the flight, the did not follow the sterile cockpit rules under 10,000, and they did so much more incorrectly.

The accident had more to do with the crews complacency then inadequate training. If Colgan wasn't training pilots they would be dumping a bird every hour. Complacency is one of the biggest potential hazards of aircrews and it is up to the PF and PNF to monitor each other. The FO should have pushed the yoke and not raise the flaps. Not reacted poorly due to having their heads up their exhaust. The NTSB even faulted both pilots for not following the SOP's they were trained and told to operate under. It is a prime example of meatbags being in the front. Obviously the FO passed her training making her competent but she still did everything wrong. With the number of cycles each day that are completed safely the airlines still prove they are the safest form of travel. I just wish people would understand this was a perfect storm situation. You had two inept crew that one never showed indications of having issues during abnormal flight ops paired together. Really there is little the FAA can do besides mandate higher time requirements and no longer allow internal DE authorities.

The Airlines need to rethink how the train, and keep their CFIs, instructors or whatever in check.

How do you mean in check? Making sure they follow SOP's? The airlines tried with cockpit cams which the unions went to war over. The only true way to keep the crews in check is cockpit cams and flight data/CVR pulls which the unions would never agree too.

People must understand that even low cost flights are great, most of them end up in the pilot being hurt economically, and mentally. They receive low pays, and feel unappreciated for what they do, and get a tremendous amount of pressure and stress put on them. The co-pilot on the Buffalo flight was payed $16,000 a year, which is about the amount my local supermarket pays! The pilot also had a 2nd job at a coffee shop to accommodate for paying for training and had to travel a great distance from the west to east coast to arrive at her job. If you ask me that is pretty stressful. I bet the probably feel unmotivated. People and Airlines need to understand that sometimes you just have to pay the full price. If the jobs the passengers had, had low prices on their products/services too, how would they survive?

Can't blame the FO's pay or commute. She knew what she was getting when she was hired and didn't adapt properly. If she was a Newark driver she should have gotten with other pilots/FA/throwers a crash pad. Every regional pilot I know and myself included lived in a crash pad with 1 to 5 others. She elected to work for Colgan and no one put a gun to her head. She created the stress and failed her IM SAFE check. You are right with your statement it is the consumers fault. But we have become use to $99 fares and even demand them. What people don't realize is even with high load factors the operating costs of the airlines are extremely high. Regionals have higher due to higher cycles, newer planes, and less $ per mile earned. If you want that under appreciated driver up front to earn more expect tickets 3-5 times higher. I just hope people take the PBS story with a grain of salt. And gman I hope you make it to the airlines one day. Just don't compromise your own safety and the safety of other for silly stripes on your uniform. It is only a job and you will realize that one day. Just follow IM SAFE, keep learning once you get the job and remember the folks in back. Or upgrade to cargo and lose that last step.

[red1 0]

Thanks for the heads up about the show, will def tune in.

[gman! 1]

I just hope people take the PBS story with a grain of salt. And gman I hope you make it to the airlines one day. Just don't compromise your own safety and the safety of other for silly stripes on your uniform. It is only a job and you will realize that one day. Just follow IM SAFE, keep learning once you get the job and remember the folks in back. Or upgrade to cargo and lose that last step.

I will be watching definitely. I understand your points and agree with you, and I am not a pilot so what I say might be flawed sometimes :(. Thank you for your support, and if I upgrade to cargo, I'll try my best to treat the boxes and animals like if they were my babies :(.------------------------The program looks like it has some valid points, but I hope they will talk about solutions and not just talk about the problems the whole time :(.

[red1 0]

Not that I wasn't aware of the general status of the regional airlines, its quite scary after watching the show.

[gman! 1]

Looks like the show is on at 10 Easter USA Time instead of 9. Watching now!

[rightseater 0]

That was a very well put together program. Thanks to Ben for letting us know about it.

[gman! 1]

I finished watching it, and I too want to thank you for sharing it. Its sad that it took 50 people to realize the problems, but you cannot change the past. Perhaps the FAA should be re-looked at. I know its hard to publicly denounce an airline but its either that, or the airlines continue their bad ways, or even lives being lost. Hopefully their will be another program that dives deeper and is longer than this in the future.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

You can't blame regionals for making the job more competitive or popular. Being a pilot was always a job that people admired, in fact regional airlines have made the dream a possibility for more. If it wasn't for the regionals the airlines would be almost exclusively ex-military like in the past. Also the regionals made it where you can get on with 1000tt or less. Back in 1999 I remember CFI's with 2000TT and 500ME not getting hired by regionals. What people forget is the airlines have always paid lower salaries for new pilots as a pay your dues. I remember a DE telling me of his start with Texas International and getting paid a quarter of the Capt salary for the first year. The airlines spend tremendous amounts of money to train the fresh FO's and need to write that off. You got 1000's of current pilots who operate in the majors and regionals who owe thousands upon thousands in loans for college or flight training. So I wouldn't expect the Govt to pay your way through Riddle/UND/Kent etc. You want to be a pilot you find a way. It is the way it was and always will be. If you don't want a student loan then look at the military. Historically that is the only way to get a college degree for free then fly in the airlines. The accident had more to do with the crews complacency then inadequate training. If Colgan wasn't training pilots they would be dumping a bird every hour. Complacency is one of the biggest potential hazards of aircrews and it is up to the PF and PNF to monitor each other. The FO should have pushed the yoke and not raise the flaps. Not reacted poorly due to having their heads up their exhaust. The NTSB even faulted both pilots for not following the SOP's they were trained and told to operate under. It is a prime example of meatbags being in the front. Obviously the FO passed her training making her competent but she still did everything wrong. With the number of cycles each day that are completed safely the airlines still prove they are the safest form of travel. I just wish people would understand this was a perfect storm situation. You had two inept crew that one never showed indications of having issues during abnormal flight ops paired together. Really there is little the FAA can do besides mandate higher time requirements and no longer allow internal DE authorities. How do you mean in check? Making sure they follow SOP's? The airlines tried with cockpit cams which the unions went to war over. The only true way to keep the crews in check is cockpit cams and flight data/CVR pulls which the unions would never agree too. Can't blame the FO's pay or commute. She knew what she was getting when she was hired and didn't adapt properly. If she was a Newark driver she should have gotten with other pilots/FA/throwers a crash pad. Every regional pilot I know and myself included lived in a crash pad with 1 to 5 others. She elected to work for Colgan and no one put a gun to her head. She created the stress and failed her IM SAFE check. You are right with your statement it is the consumers fault. But we have become use to $99 fares and even demand them. What people don't realize is even with high load factors the operating costs of the airlines are extremely high. Regionals have higher due to higher cycles, newer planes, and less $ per mile earned. If you want that under appreciated driver up front to earn more expect tickets 3-5 times higher. I just hope people take the PBS story with a grain of salt. And gman I hope you make it to the airlines one day. Just don't compromise your own safety and the safety of other for silly stripes on your uniform. It is only a job and you will realize that one day. Just follow IM SAFE, keep learning once you get the job and remember the folks in back. Or upgrade to cargo and lose that last step.

I agree with you on every count except the fact about the crash pad. I bet if the pilots had enough money to pay for them, they would have thrown their money into a pot and be apart of one. However, looking at the pay scales, we both know FOs don't get paid much at all, my gf is a nanny and brings home more than what I would make at the regionals in the first year. Granted I wouldn't go to Colgan. Also, you most likely could agree with me on this, If pilots want to do something about the low wages ans work rules....then don't apply to places like Colgan. Its pathetic.

[JohnFromCO 15]

I agree with you on every count except the fact about the crash pad. I bet if the pilots had enough money to pay for them, they would have thrown their money into a pot and be apart of one. However, looking at the pay scales, we both know FOs don't get paid much at all, my gf is a nanny and brings home more than what I would make at the regionals in the first year. Granted I wouldn't go to Colgan. Also, you most likely could agree with me on this, If pilots want to do something about the low wages ans work rules....then don't apply to places like Colgan. Its pathetic.

Crash pads are quite common for Jr. crew in cities like Cleveland, Newark, LA, and New York. Most guys/gals get together with other pilots or crew and pool their money together. When I got moved to Cleveland from Houston, where I lived with my folks, I lived with 5 other pilots and we rotated out of a 1 bedroom apartment. I got buddies with Eagle that have a crash pad in NY but live in Dallas. So it is done and I highly recommend it. Since other options like YMCA, insert joke, don't really exist combining resources is the best option. I completely agree with you about pilots not going to any airline that can't pay them what they need. Unfortunately there will always be a steady stream of low timers willing to be paid whatever just to fly. Look at Greatlakes where the throwers make more than the FO's. Consumers just need to realize you can't have your $99 and down for round trips and expect the same service or quality. In the end I hope all crews up front still care about self preservation.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

Crash pads are quite common for Jr. crew in cities like Cleveland, Newark, LA, and New York. Most guys/gals get together with other pilots or crew and pool their money together. When I got moved to Cleveland from Houston, where I lived with my folks, I lived with 5 other pilots and we rotated out of a 1 bedroom apartment. I got buddies with Eagle that have a crash pad in NY but live in Dallas. So it is done and I highly recommend it. Since other options like YMCA, insert joke, don't really exist combining resources is the best option. I completely agree with you about pilots not going to any airline that can't pay them what they need. Unfortunately there will always be a steady stream of low timers willing to be paid whatever just to fly. Look at Greatlakes where the throwers make more than the FO's. Consumers just need to realize you can't have your $99 and down for round trips and expect the same service or quality. In the end I hope all crews up front still care about self preservation.

I heard GreatLakes is hiring right now and I bet you my left foot that they have resumes piling up like no other. Granted I am still a student pilot but seriously, when will these guys learn to respect themselves more than a job. When it comes to self preservation, I see it less and less when it comes to low time guys. By the way I sent you a PM.

[JohnFromCO 15]

I heard GreatLakes is hiring right now and I bet you my left foot that they have resumes piling up like no other. Granted I am still a student pilot but seriously, when will these guys learn to respect themselves more than a job. When it comes to self preservation, I see it less and less when it comes to low time guys. By the way I sent you a PM.

I will always playful knock Greatmistakes, but I will give them credit they seem to run a pretty good ship. I have a friend who got his commercial multi and was hired with GLA on the 120 with 700TT, 50ME back in mid '08. He seems to like the flying a lot and has gained a ton of actual. The pay is awful but he is based and lives in Denver with his spouse who supports him. That is how most new FO's survive, they have a spouse who earns enough for the two or they make changes to their life style. It is when someone who doesn't have that support factor and takes a job making $16k, which does not support their life style, causes that person to get into trouble. Ie: commuting across the country after their 2nd job.

[Guest CX355]

For those who have not done so, take a read at many of the comments at PBS discussion on this program, there are some good and thoughtful remarks from those who have some years of experience and knowledge about the industry and this subject in particular.

[dmaher 0]

Complacency is one of the biggest potential hazards of aircrews and it is up to the PF and PNF to monitor each other. The FO should have pushed the yoke and not raise the flaps.

Just some context...was the captain the pilot flying?