FSDT and short pauses in FSX

[blueridgeflyer 1]

Greetings,Like many of you, I also am getting a series of short pauses when flying into an area with FSDT scenery (primarily PHNL, KJFK, and KFLL). I have toyed with the AntiPopUp=X cfg edit (from 1-10 have been tried) without eliminating the issue. Ordinarily I would place this in the FSDT forum, but the company swears that there is nothing in either Addon Manager or their scenery that is the culprit. If anyone has any tips that might apply to my situation please feel free to comment.An unrelated question. FSX now loads the internal FPS counter on by default. Not sure how that happened, but it is rather annoying. Anyone know of a way to prevent this other that the obvious SHIFT Z?

[tf51d 284]

Greetings,Like many of you, I also am getting a series of short pauses when flying into an area with FSDT scenery (primarily PHNL, KJFK, and KFLL). I have toyed with the AntiPopUp=X cfg edit (from 1-10 have been tried) without eliminating the issue. Ordinarily I would place this in the FSDT forum, but the company swears that there is nothing in either Addon Manager or their scenery that is the culprit. If anyone has any tips that might apply to my situation please feel free to comment.An unrelated question. FSX now loads the internal FPS counter on by default. Not sure how that happened, but it is rather annoying. Anyone know of a way to prevent this other that the obvious SHIFT Z?

I have the same thing with the Cloud9 Orlando package. Which of course, you guessed it, uses the Addon Manager, which of cause the developer swears up and down isn't the problem! I eventually had to get used to it, because nothing I have found or tried, have corrected it.

[Guest j0nx]

The pops are caused by the scenery objects popping in and out. The airports have a lot of objects like cars, trees, shipping containers, etc scattered around and you will notice they are not visible until you are RIGHT on top of them. When these objects get loaded into view it causes the sim to stall for 1/4 second or so as they are loaded. It is very annoying without a doubt and I have only noticed that FSDT airports cause it. I'm not sure why they don't leave their objects constantly loaded and visible but they probably thought it would increase performance to load them dynamically as they are needed...

[bojote 20]

Greetings,Like many of you, I also am getting a series of short pauses when flying into an area with FSDT scenery (primarily PHNL, KJFK, and KFLL). I have toyed with the AntiPopUp=X cfg edit (from 1-10 have been tried) without eliminating the issue. Ordinarily I would place this in the FSDT forum, but the company swears that there is nothing in either Addon Manager or their scenery that is the culprit. If anyone has any tips that might apply to my situation please feel free to comment.An unrelated question. FSX now loads the internal FPS counter on by default. Not sure how that happened, but it is rather annoying. Anyone know of a way to prevent this other that the obvious SHIFT Z?

You can manually edit AntiPopup and make it 20, which is the MAX value allowed. (the GUI won't let you go past 10) And I have discussed this with Umberto several times and he has never denied this, so I don't know why you say they swear there is nothing wrong.. this is simply how their complex sceneries work, otherwise, you'll have a 5-8 second pause when loading the entire scenery... they just have a 'staggered load' approach to it, which, makes sense for the mayority of users... those with very high end machines ARE the most affected.AntiPopup 20 WONT fix the issue entirely, it will just make the pauses 5 to 8 miles out. In case you are interested, AntiPopup is simply a multiplier value applied to the scenery object LOD. So, if a building has a 0.3nm value then (0.3 x 20) = 6nm meaning, buildings will load 6nm out from the scenery (and you'll experience the short pause) IF the LOD value is WRONG (0 for example) they will ignore the antipopup value, meaning, you'll have the pauses even in close proximity of the scenery. I told Umberto this, and the guy seemed VERY willing to help, he has been VERY responsive to my concerns... however, *IF* they fix this for HIGH end users, they could be causing a problem to those with lower end hardware... they are just trying to find a balance I think

[cmpbellsjc 2,960]

Ryan, I have asked Umberto about this a few times in two threads going in the KFLL section on their site.Anyways, like you I was having a problem with the pauses, most noticably at KFLL. I do own their KLAS, KORD, KMCO, Geneva, and Zurich also, but it was KFLL that was really giving me fits with the pauses. I also tried the popup setting in the fsx.cfg and set it as high as 20, but still no improvement.The other day Umberto (Virtuali), suggested that when approaching KFLL I try lowering the Scenery Density slider to the Normal setting, rather than Dense, Very Dense, or the max which I think is Extremely Dense. I tried it, although I dont like to lower my scenery complexity sliders, but it cleared up the loading pauses and now KFLL is smooth as silk. I still have yet to try setting it at Dense, but Normal is working fine and the airport looks the same, the only difference is that the 2 cruise ships in the dock by the beach are gone along with a few buildings in the downtown area.Here's a quote from Umberto explaining why lowering the setting in KFLL helped."Jokes apart, the default scenery in the KFLL is quite taxiing for performances. And, we noticed this happens whenever there's a port/dock/cranes/ships objects, which is why the default Seattle is also so slow. I guess these default library objects are simply too unoptimized.And, I think that at "Normal" complexity, all of our KFLL airport is in, except for the 3d cars on the parkings, which are quite complex as well, they are split into 3 objects, one for each parking, and they also have 3 LOD levels plus a loading range of about 0.3 nm (that will be multiplied by the Antipop setting, of course) so, getting rid of them, might have contributed a bit.We were wondering why, of all our sceneries, KFLL is the only one that performs much better in FS9 (there's no such big difference at, let's say, JFK), and the reason is because the default KFLL in FS9 is bare and empty, while the default KFLL in FSX is quite heavy on fps, even without any airport."The funny thing was on my computer I was getting good performance at KFLL as far as FPS were concerned, but it was the slight pauses that were driving me crazy. None of the other FSDT airports give me problems even with my Scenery Density slider at max setting. Umberto said that the reason KFLL was more of a problem with the pauses aside from the reason I mention above is because its a small airport with lots of object packed into a small area, where as KORD and KLAS are larger and the objects are spread out more.Try this and see if it helps. I wil find myself using it when flying complex airliners into the airport becasue I wont be to busy looking at the scenery. Then when I am making GA flights around the airport I will set it back to max density to get the surrounding scenery objects.

[Guest j0nx]

Hover a chopper over all parts of their airports and you will see at the exact same time the cars in the lots, shipping containers, trees, etc come into view is when you will see the pauses. I assume it is the hard drive caching these things.

[blueridgeflyer 1]

Cmpbellsjc & *******,Thanks guys for your insight. I did insert the AntiPopUp=20 into the cfg and find that this, at least, pushes the pauses out further than short final. I would be willing to bring the scenery complexity down to Normal if FSX default airport terminals weren't truncated in the process. I really admire FSDT products and this certainly isn't meant as a slight to that talented team. My experience in FSX scenery products must have spoiled me to the extent that I find the byproduct of their staggered object insertion to be a slight nuisance. (trying to remain ultra diplomatic in my wording) :( It won't keep me from purchasing more of their products however. Thanks again for you assistance.

[bojote 20]

Cmpbellsjc & *******,Thanks guys for your insight. I did insert the AntiPopUp=20 into the cfg and find that this, at least, pushes the pauses out further than short final. I would be willing to bring the scenery complexity down to Normal if FSX default airport terminals weren't truncated in the process. I really admire FSDT products and this certainly isn't meant as a slight to that talented team. My experience in FSX scenery products must have spoiled me to the extent that I find the byproduct of their staggered object insertion to be a slight nuisance. (trying to remain ultra diplomatic in my wording) :( It won't keep me from purchasing more of their products however. Thanks again for you assistance.

As a suggestion (to Umberto) I would like to see if it is possible to have one of their sceneries load all the buildings regardless of LOD setting. This is impractical for low end machines, but definitely worth experimenting given current hardware. I don't think this is easy to do, specially for already released products, but definitely something that can be done for future products (KDFW for example) only time will tell and We'll have to wait... personally, I think FSDT products are TOP QUALITY, so, even though I get annonyed with the pauses, I still use their products, they are simply amazing (Specially KJFK) considering how massive this scenery is.

[blueridgeflyer 1]

As a suggestion (to Umberto) I would like to see if it is possible to have one of their sceneries load all the buildings regardless of LOD setting. This is impractical for low end machines, but definitely worth experimenting given current hardware. I don't think this is easy to do, specially for already released products, but definitely something that can be done for future products (KDFW for example) only time will tell and We'll have to wait... personally, I think FSDT products are TOP QUALITY, so, even though I get annonyed with the pauses, I still use their products, they are simply amazing (Specially KJFK) considering how massive this scenery is.

Agreed. On my system I don’t have these issues with products from other companies such at FT, ORBX, Tonjass Fjords ect. FSDT is indeed high quality, but there has to be a better way. Perhaps rather than loading 5 or 6 hierarchies of objects that each cause 1 second pauses (as PHNL seems to), they would be better served to create smaller batches at double or triple the number? Just saying...A user (perhaps it was you) suggested a texture resizing tool similar to FS9. I would be willing to give that a try. Yes DFW will be interesting. I recall umberto mentioning that they were taking their time to try out some new techniques with this project. It has to be immensely challenging for them to develop the airport in high detail given its sprawling nature. Also there is the Skylink track and pillars that run for the entire length of Terms ABCDE something like 3-4 miles. That is going to put even the latest hardware to task. But I have been anticipating DFW for years and can hardly wait.

[bojote 20]

A user (perhaps it was you) suggested a texture resizing tool similar to FS9. I would be willing to give that a try.

I don't think so :)However, I agree with you, I'm sure they are trying a new approach, specially since DFW its MASSIVE!!! remember what happened with SimFlyers???? it is, by no means an easy task.. but if ANYONE can do it, it is FSDT, lets see what they have in store for us ;)

[CFIJose 5,485]

Where did you put the anti pop up line in the cfg?AntiPopUp=20I have not tried lowering the AG to normal, but I would like to see if it does smooth out all these wonderful airports.The Avsim review gave KFLL a 10/10 score. I think it's a great airport worth the praise, but micro-pauses ruin the experience.I don't see anyone mentioning that even when you load the airport, at the airport, it still takes a split second pause to load the scenery.Why? Could it be the manager making sure that the airport is legit? Let me think? OK to load.

[blueridgeflyer 1]

Here are the top 6 lines in my cfg:[JOBSCHEDULER]AffinityMask=14[bUFFERPOOLS]Poolsize=1000000[FSDREAMTEAM]AntiPopUp=20

[CFIJose 5,485]

Thanks.

[virtuali 4,419]

There are lots of misconceptions here...let's clear up some facts but please, everyone, read ALL the message, not simply say "the developer swears the Addon Manager is not the culprit", just because you don't want to follow a complex explanation to its end.Let's first agree on terms definitions, because there's also a problem of using correct the terms, and I keep seeing people using wrong terms, which only adds to the confusion, and doesn't help undertanding (and dealing) with the problem.LOD doesn't have anything to do with objects loaded at a certain distance. LOD it's the displaying of *different* versions of the SAME object, in different levels of complexity, depending on the actual object size on screen, AFTER the object has been loaded.It's a technique commonly used with fps friendly AI, and everybody knows that, the best AI models are those that are using several LOD levels, because it allows to have more of them, without impacting too much performances. Nobody would want to use AI models without LODs so, I hope, everybody would agree that, not having LOD is BAD.LOD doesn't have anything to do with the decision of *when* load an object, because what LOD level to use, is decided only when the object has already been loaded.The decision to load or not the object, instead, is best called "distance culling" which means, the whole object (with all its LODs, if there are any) will not be loaded until getting into a certain range of the object. Only AFTER the object has loaded, the LODs (if the object *use* LOD in the first place) will enter into play.So, the two are entirely different issues:1) Should I load the object or not, depending on my range ?2) In case I am in the range, which LOD should I display ?#1 is usually called "Distance culling", #2 is plain LOD- In FS2002, it was possible to control distance culling quite precisely, using some BGL commands ( V1 and V2, for those that knows SCASM)- In FS9, it wasn't possible anymore to control distance culling, by default, but was possibile by tweaking the ASM code that the Gmax exported generated. This using the FS9 BGL syntax. Of course, by using FS2002 syntax, all the FS2002 methods would still work- Both FS2002 and FS9 allowed LOD levels in BGL files, with similar methods- In FSX RTM and SP1, distance culling wasn't allowed by default as in FS9, but there isn't any ASM code to tweak so, there's just no way to control precisely loading distance for an object, using FSX native code. It was still possible to do it, by using FS9 or FS2002 code.- In FSX SP2, even LOD levels in BGL files has gone, this created an huge uproad with some developers (FlyTampa complained a lot about it) because they were accustomed to get better performances out of their sceneries, by using LOD. Well, to be precise, LOD is not *entirely* gone, but it's less flexible than it used to be.Enters the Addon Manager.Although many people mistakenly think its main use is the scenery protection, and it's a common and undertstandable mistake, since that is the only part users get in touch with, for us the main advantage of the Addon Manager, is that we are not bounded by many of the FSX SDK limitations, because we get better control on displaying objects, which results in better performances.So, what the Addon Manager does, is to simply provide with BOTH Distance Culling and LOD, without having to use FS9 code, which is not normally possible with the FSX SDK. Note that, the ONLY thing the Addon Manager "does" on its own, it's the Distance Culling. It doesn't "do" LOD, because LOD is still handled by FSX, it's just that LOD comes back with the Addon Manager, only for the fact those objects are not in a BGL anymore, and LOD (in FSX SP2) in only lost for BGLs. So, the Addon Manager does not "emulate" LOD, it's still handled by FSX in the same way as for AI airplanes, the only thing that is really handled by the Addon Manager, is the Distance Culling, which is the decision to load or not an object, based on distance. Once the object is in, its LODs (if there are any) are handled by FSX on its own.Now, the obvious question: if the "pauses" are caused by the loading of objects, why you don't simply load all the objects at once ? Because, obviously, the displayed polygon count and texture usage will just go to the roof, lowering the frame rate. And, the worse impact would be on the less powerful systems that simply can't afford to display all that stuff.Also, we can't possibly know in advance what ELSE is loaded on each user's systems so, for example, if there are 200 AI models parked, the VRAM is already dangerously close to the exaustion, even if there wasn't any scenery. Also, we can't possibly know what is considered to be an acceptable loss in fps, because is higly subjective.This means, we can't make a decision for everybody and, since we can't do this, the ONLY option that makes sense, is to be as conservative as possible, trying to not display things if they are not supposed to be in view.Other developers simply don't have this choice and, since they can't finely control the loading distances of their objects (in FSX native code), they don't have any other choice than to DESIGN the scenery taking into account this, which means lowering the detail, taking into account that everything will be loaded at once.We, instead, have the choice, which means, we CAN design objects that starts to be more complex, *knowing* that, thanks to the Addon Manager, most of the complexity will not be always displayed, both because we don't lose LOD, but also because we can cut the object after a certain distance.This allows us to create sceneries like JFK, that runs very decently on a vast choice of systems, that many thought to be "impossible" on FSX.But of course, over the months/years, since the available hardware gets faster, it becomes possible to afford to be a little bit less conservative.The main issue is: the more stuff you load at a larger rage, the less chances for pauses because, by keep loading/unloading objects that have very short visible range, there's a risk of pauses. But of course, with more objects displayed at the same time, the general frame rate will be slower. This DOES change between systems: those with less powerful machines will have a much bigger impact on the fps by having "everything in", compared to those with faster systems.Which is why, WE HAVE A USER SETTABLE PARAMETER, to control the Addon Manager behaviour on the loading distance, which is of course the Anti-popup slider.This act as multiplier of loading ranges for ALL the objects handled by the Addon Manager. Normally, on a scenery like KFLL or KFJK, the smallest loading ranges are assigned to objects like airport ground clutter, carts, small signs, and this is usually set around 0.3/0.4 nautical miles. Other objects have bigger ranges, and the main buildings are always loaded at the maximum scenery range so, they don't get any distance culling.This means that, setting the Anti-popup to a value of 10, means that all the loading ranges will be multiplied by 10x so, the smallest objects will be loaded at 3-4 nautical miles from the user.With the version of the Addon Manager that was online until today, 10 was the maximum value that was accepted from the Addon Manager user interface.Since some users wanted to try higher values, and suggested to "load everything at once", we put a new version online today, that allows to set the slider up to 30xSetting it a 30, WILL force EVERYTHING to be loaded at the maximum scenery range, which is usually (depending on the scenery) varies from 6 to 10 nm. No scenery has a loading range larger than 10 nm, which is also important in order to not interfere with nearby airports. JFK, for this reason, loads a 7 nm, so you don't have JFK loaded when landing at KLGA, which is so close.But even for the 10 nm sceneries, having the slider to 30 WILL effectively disable Distance Culling altogether, because no object has ranges shorter than 0.3 nm anyway which means, inside 9 nm, everything will be loaded and never discarded again, until you exit from the scenery of course.So, with the new version, and the slider at maximum, you'll basically get rid of any distance culling made by the Addon Manager and, you are back in the hands of FSX again. To get the Addon Manager, you can either load its Stand-Alone installer OR, you can simply reinstall any of the sceneries so, the new .DLL will be downloaded automatically.To be entirely fair, just putting the slider at maximum will NOT make miracles: don't forget that these sceneries are DESIGNED to be used with distance culling. If we didn't had the chance to cut objects based on distance, we would have designed them to be less complex or with just less objects right from the start! We also might have chosen a different airport, because what's in the default scenery makes a difference too.In fact, as it was found out, most of the problems at KFLL WHERE NOT caused by the Addon Manager distance culling but, instead, were caused by the default scenery at KFLL, which includes some libraries which are very heavy on fps. And no, the Addon Manager is not "making sure that the airport is legit", losing time doing this, for every object, hence the pauses. Scenery activation is checked, offline, only once when FSX start. The only thing slowed down, by the couple of *milliseconds* that call takes, is the FSX startup time.

[blueridgeflyer 1]

Setting it a 30, WILL force EVERYTHING to be loaded at the maximum scenery range, which is usually (depending on the scenery) varies from 6 to 10 nm. No scenery has a loading range larger than 10 nm, which is also important in order to not interfere with nearby airports. JFK, for this reason, loads a 7 nm, so you don't have JFK loaded when landing at KLGA, which is so close.But even for the 10 nm sceneries, having the slider to 30 WILL effectively disable Distance Culling altogether, because no object has ranges shorter than 0.3 nm anyway which means, inside 9 nm, everything will be loaded and never discarded again, until you exit from the scenery of course.

Umberto,I tried the AntiPopUp=30 and I had three separate pause events at PHNL: Terrain imagery loaded in at 9NM with no pause. At about 8NM Trees were rendered with a slight pause. Static AI rendered at 7NM with a very short pause. At 4-5NM the main aerodrome buildings with terminals rendered with a fairly significant pause. I'm attempting to seek clarification on your statement that setting "[AntiPopUp=30] WILL force EVERYTHING to be loaded at the maximum scenery range." Does that imply that all scenery objects would be simultaneously loaded? Understanding that each scenery product has differing loading ranges, what is the range of PHNL in particular? I'm just attempting to perform some testing and am wondering if with AntiPopUp=30 it was normal to see the main airport buildings loaded at such short range, possibly within circling limits of Cat D aircraft. Obviously I'm driving to have the option to load everything at once (take my lumps all at once if you will) at the furthest distance possible. I understand the need for flexibility given the wide array of hardware capabilities within our community.Thanks for rehashing your explanation of culling and LOD. It was informative and very helpful.