Commercial member?

[N60JBravo 27]

Must we do this every other month?regards,Joe...or is it?

[jrhoads 6]

Must we do this every other month?regards,Joe...or is it?

Hi Joe,I would like to say that I rarely ever post and if I do, it is because I believe it is important to. I am much too busy for idle chatter or boasting my opinions.I think what is important here is that there seems to be an expectation that commercial members be not only tagged, but identified for dissemination at the discretion of any members.I just can't agree with that unless the very same expectations are applied across the board. I am trying to stay very focused on the facts here and not stray into any tangents.You simply cannot expect something from another person that you are not willing to be expected from yourself. Jim Rhoads <<<<<-------

[mgh 89]

If I sign it Jim and my signature is Jrhoads... it doesn't take much deduction to figure out who I am.

All I can figure out is that you call yourself Jim Hoads. I have no more idea who you really are any more than you have of who I really am. And it doesn't really matter. Whether a poster is associated with a commercial developer does matter - his name, however, doesn't.

[jrhoads 6]

All I can figure out is that you call yourself Jim Hoads. I have no more idea who you really are any more than you have of who I really am. And it doesn't really matter. Whether a poster is associated with a commercial developer does matter - his name, however, doesn't.

My name is not Jim Hoads and I am quite sure you know who I am because of your frequency on this forum. 2000+ post since 04? Nice try though.But for those who may not know, My name is Jim Rhoads and I am partner / developer / vice pres with Steve Halpern (pres) of Flight1 and Flight1 Aviation Technologies.Clear enough "MGH" now, who are you?Jim Rhoads

[N400QW 205]

Jim, MGH won't ID himself, could be a personal thing...who knows?

I have no more idea who you really are any more than you have of who I really am. And it doesn't really matter. Whether a poster is associated with a commercial developer does matter - his name, however, doesn't.

And why might a commercial affiliation matter there MGH?

[Guest UlfB]

I think that is quite fair and I certainly try to let everyone know who I am.Would it also be fair to assume the same from forum members?... That all forum members post with their real names or at least put it in their profile so that we know who we are talking to as well?

Jim,Not a bad idea. Over att the PMDG support forum here at avsim we all have to post our full names. I have no problem with that.Ulf Bjarke

[Guest UlfB]

Thank you all for your views on this topic.IMO the information that a member is a commercial member is pretty useless if there is no further information that clarify in what sense. Maybe the best suggestion is to get rid of this commercial member group on avsim forums. Edited: Let's all be members and then it would be up to any developer, publisher or beta tester to decide if there is any need to reveal their commercial interest when posting.

[mgh 89]

My name is not Jim Hoads and I am quite sure you know who I am because of your frequency on this forum. 2000+ post since 04? Nice try though.But for those who may not know, My name is Jim Rhoads and I am partner / developer / vice pres with Steve Halpern (pres) of Flight1 and Flight1 Aviation Technologies.Clear enough "MGH" now, who are you?Jim Rhoads

Sorry for getting your name wrong - it wasn't intentional. Your UserName is jrhoades and you sign as Jim. I wrongly assumed your name was Jim R Hoades. My mistake arose partially from my view that names on forums like this are of no importance -what matters is what's posted.I'm not a partner, developer, etc of any organisation connected with flight simulation and never have had any connection with one. What else is relevant?

[Guest SK8TRBOI747]

Thank you all for your views on this topic.IMO the information that a member is a commercial member is pretty useless if there is no further information that clarify in what sense. Maybe the best suggestion is to get rid of this commercial member group on avsim forums. Edited: Let's all be members and then it would be up to any developer, publisher or beta tester to decide if there is any need to reveal their commercial interest when posting.

I think your on to something there, UlfB!

[greggerm 312]

n4gix wrote...> That is precisely why I've quite deliberately phrased my signature's disclaimer the way I have...Don't forget that the forum software allows users to turn off the viewing of other people's signatures.(My Controls) > (Board Settings) > "Do you wish to view members signatures when reading topics? (Yes/No)"Your signature (and everyone else's) can and will often be turned off... I've often disabled this setting on forums in the past to get through the gobbledygook of system spec boasting and "Proud supporter of... " tags which clutter up a clean page of posts. One can never be assured that the signature is being displayed for all users. -Greg

[n4gix 4,947]

I can't do anything about that, Greg. But, you have raised a point I'd not considered... :(

[Tabs 2,790]

Folks who are not developers here - ask yourself this: is everything *you* say or do in your life representative of the company you work for? I'm going to guess the answer is no. Why should it be any different for us? Just because we happen to work for addon companies doesn't mean that our every waking moment is spent under their purview. Would you rather I create an alternate screenname here and give you no idea at all who I am when posting my own opinions? I don't see how that benefits anyone, it'd just be even more deceptive than you already seem to think we are.As I've said in other threads on this topic, I was a simmer just like any of you long before I worked for an addon company, I still buy addons just like anyone else and still fly outside the bounds of company work. People aren't caricatures who say or do things for just one narrow reason or agenda. I certain do not and I think the same holds true for most other people in my position.As an aside, I've seen several instances recently on the General FS9 or FSX forum where simmers conducted threads about a company's product in which they attempted to actually ban the developers in question from replying. The threads almost immediately started to feature a bunch of inaccurate claims about the company and the product. I think we are absolutely entitled to respond in these cases - you don't get the right to make false claims about us just because you're a customer. I saw many users react with indignation to this assertion and I just don't understand that at all. It's a public forum and that includes those of us who make what you're buying. The discussion cannot be one-way.

[virtualstuff 754]

Folks who are not developers here - ask yourself this: is everything *you* say or do in your life representative of the company you work for? I'm going to guess the answer is no. Why should it be any different for us? Just because we happen to work for addon companies doesn't mean that our every waking moment is spent under their purview. Would you rather I create an alternate screenname here and give you no idea at all who I am when posting my own opinions? I don't see how that benefits anyone, it'd just be even more deceptive than you already seem to think we are.As I've said in other threads on this topic, I was a simmer just like any of you long before I worked for an addon company, I still buy addons just like anyone else and still fly outside the bounds of company work. People aren't caricatures who say or do things for just one narrow reason or agenda. I certain do not and I think the same holds true for most other people in my position.As an aside, I've seen several instances recently on the General FS9 or FSX forum where simmers conducted threads about a company's product in which they attempted to actually ban the developers in question from replying. The threads almost immediately started to feature a bunch of inaccurate claims about the company and the product. I think we are absolutely entitled to respond in these cases - you don't get the right to make false claims about us just because you're a customer. I saw many users react with indignation to this assertion and I just don't understand that at all. It's a public forum and that includes those of us who make what you're buying. The discussion cannot be one-way.

I couldn't have said it better funny is so many fellow simmers aren't signing with there real full names...Cheers,

[Guest -BeNt-]

Folks who are not developers here - ask yourself this: is everything *you* say or do in your life representative of the company you work for? I'm going to guess the answer is no. Why should it be any different for us? Just because we happen to work for addon companies doesn't mean that our every waking moment is spent under their purview. Would you rather I create an alternate screenname here and give you no idea at all who I am when posting my own opinions? I don't see how that benefits anyone, it'd just be even more deceptive than you already seem to think we are.As I've said in other threads on this topic, I was a simmer just like any of you long before I worked for an addon company, I still buy addons just like anyone else and still fly outside the bounds of company work. People aren't caricatures who say or do things for just one narrow reason or agenda. I certain do not and I think the same holds true for most other people in my position.As an aside, I've seen several instances recently on the General FS9 or FSX forum where simmers conducted threads about a company's product in which they attempted to actually ban the developers in question from replying. The threads almost immediately started to feature a bunch of inaccurate claims about the company and the product. I think we are absolutely entitled to respond in these cases - you don't get the right to make false claims about us just because you're a customer. I saw many users react with indignation to this assertion and I just don't understand that at all. It's a public forum and that includes those of us who make what you're buying. The discussion cannot be one-way.

Well there is an issue with this, you can not compare to people who do not work, distribute, publish, and support their products or jobs on the internet. The entire internet is your business's shop when inside a website of interest for the business you work for, this is especially true when you are posting in a flight simulation forum. Also YES everything I say in a working environment does reflect my company. But being in Wal-Mart or at home talking with a neighbor doesn't constitute a working environment, so asking that question to someone who is posting on an internet site for a simulator when they work as a plumber makes your point null. However with flight sim developers these forums are a working environment for them, they do represent their companies and you can't have both sides of the coin. Have you ever been at work with a client, customer, or someone you didn't know standing around and tell a ranche joke? My guess would be no, why because you represent your company. But once you step outside those shoes and go home, you can tell your neighbor everything and laugh with no consequences.What I'm trying to put across, is that these forums, since they are used to support customers, advertise their products, and maybe even a few of their products being sold in the store here, this makes this site an interest for the business you work for as a developer, so everyone working for these companies represent them here if they are advertised as commercial members for the companies they work for. Now if this was a forum that didn't deal with flight simulation then all bets are off, they are on their own territory and away from the stomping grounds of the company they work for. I guess the best way to put it, if you work as a cashier at McDonald's, just because you walk away from the cash register and out into the parking lot you still have on the uniform and are around where you work, so if you start bad mouthing the food it represents what the company thinks about it. That commercial member tag is your uniform in all respects on these forums. As far as creating separate screen names etc. being more deceptive it would be. But once you are tied to a company you need to be mindful you are still seen as representing that company when you reply to people's post rather it's intended or not. Helpful or harmful it will be seen that way. That is the reason you don't see the majority of companies posting on the forums and they offer support only though email or on their own forums. While this can be aggravating to both customers and companies alike it is the only true way to draw a line. And in the end everyone needs to remember when you read something by someone that is basically anonymous, since you don't personally know them, it should be taken with a grain of salt. And it's also a reason why commercial members shouldn't respond with negativity on competing products, it's a conflict of interest plain and simple no matter how true it is or isn't. And people will interpret this as you representing what your company as a whole thinks.Coming back to your discussion about customers trying to say devs should be banned about responding to false claims about their products. I agree you should be able to respond, in which you are representing the company you work for, this is the reason I believe sites like AVSIM should be limited to enthusiasts and all support should be handled on each developers own site, not a sub-forum of this site. This would make the whole people wanting to dual role null and void, and reverts everyone back to not knowing who you are and your advice should be taken with a grain of salt. It also means if you want a true answer from the developers you know where to go and look besides surfing a random forum that deal with anything and everything under the sun for flight simulation. Then everyone in the AVSIM forum would know views are expressed on on their own merit and not a company they are working for. But the devs aren't angels either I have seen some false claims from various devs over the years in these same forums that contradict what a group of people are complaining and reporting about, so on the flip side that's the internet and that's flight simulation as a whole. In the end, there is no perfect solution to a problem like this, and if most users are like me, when I see a negative post by a commercial member, I look at who they work for and depending on the circumstances it's either a strike on the company itself or merely on that person. So I would be mindful when you are posting if you aren't sure how it will be interpreted you don't post it, because it will be taken as the company is being represented. I also think commercial members need to be tag in some way to identify who they work with/for.Luke