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Guest cliffie1931

How do I follow the Aproach Procedure into Heathrow?

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Hi Cliff,You would not fly the star in the real world, 99.99% of the times you will be radar vectored by ATC for traffic spacing (using the HDG knob in the MCP).Now, as you know, you can build and enter custom waypoints in the LEGS page of the FMC.BIG277/22 will be the waypoint you need, being 277 the radial and 22 the distance.Goodwood is a VOR and 114.75 its frequency. There is a Goodwood GWC-radial 001-13 miles-point in the arrival for rwys 09L and 09R, that you will enter as GWC001/13...etc, etc.You can also use the FIX page of the FMC that will provide you with bearings and distances (green dashed lines and circles in the Navigation Display) for any navaid or airport you need. Once you have those references use HDG (MCP) as in the real world.Then go for LOC intercept and GS capture (You should be stablished at 2500 ft at 7.5 miles ILS DME). An be careful, in Heathrow you have one aircraft 2.5 miles ahead and another one 2.5 miles behind... :(

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If you want to learn basic navigation techniques, I would suggest using one of the default aircraft such as the Cessna, rather then trying it while managing a 747. One good resouce you can use (and there are many others) is http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/basic-nav-general.htm The 747 (as most modern aircraft) use fancy navigation computers that do most of the work for you, allowing the pilot to use routes and waypoints, SIDs and STARs. This is a bit like following the GPS in a car, and we have all laughed at stories of the woman who drove her car into the river, or the truck driver ending up in the mddle of a bog because thats where the GPS said to go. To use the fancy tools safely and correctly, you must understand the underlying principles. The underlying navigation principles uses the idea that if I know my distance and direction from two (or more) fixed points, then I know where I am, and I can work out what to do the get to where I want to be. Whether those points are geosynchronous satellites, radio base stations or church steeples doesn't matter, exactly the same principles apply. In your case you have used the satellites to get you to BIG (Biggen Hill) but now you want to use radios to land on runway 09. Pure VOR to VOR followed by an ILS landing,only using the FMC to tune the NAV radios is certainly possible in the 747, but not recommended at your current level of knowledge. Learn to do it in the Cessna, then you will understand what the FMC is doing for you, and you will be able to spot and correct issues before they become problems. To answer your specific question, tune NAV1 to BIG (115.10) and NAV2 to GWC(114.75) and from directly over Biggen Hill at 7000, fly on radial 277 for 26 miles. At this point, GWC should be 22 miles away. Start a descent to 6000 but do not go below it until you are 29miles from BIG (and 19 from GWC) at which point start a standard right turn to intercept the 001 radial from GWC, tune NAV1 to 109.5 for ILS on 9R or 110.3 for 9L (and/or set NDB as per chart). At D35 (miles from GWC) start a right turn until you are heading 92 degrees towards your chosen runway. You want to be at 3000, and on the correct heading while still 10 miles from touch down, descending to 2500 at D7.5 (7.5 miles from the transmiter you are tuned to). If you are ILS equipped, you should intercept the glide slope at 2500, 7.5 miles from touch down and you can follow it all the way in. I don't think Heathrow allows visual approaches in real life. The question I think you meant to ask is "What should I do next"? What I would do on this flight is before Top of Descent select the runway I want (ILS 09R) etc, then select one of the associated STARs that are offered (have your ND in plan mode so you can see if the STAR is appropriate) then remove discontinuities from the flight plan and check again that it is reasonable. After that, I can just let the FMC take me in to touch down.

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If you want to learn basic navigation techniques, I would suggest using one of the default aircraft such as the Cessna, rather then trying it while managing a 747. One good resouce you can use (and there are many others) is http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/basic-nav-general.htm The 747 (as most modern aircraft) use fancy navigation computers that do most of the work for you, allowing the pilot to use routes and waypoints, SIDs and STARs. This is a bit like following the GPS in a car, and we have all laughed at stories of the woman who drove her car into the river, or the truck driver ending up in the mddle of a bog because thats where the GPS said to go. To use the fancy tools safely and correctly, you must understand the underlying principles. The underlying navigation principles uses the idea that if I know my distance and direction from two (or more) fixed points, then I know where I am, and I can work out what to do the get to where I want to be. Whether those points are geosynchronous satellites, radio base stations or church steeples doesn't matter, exactly the same principles apply. In your case you have used the satellites to get you to BIG (Biggen Hill) but now you want to use radios to land on runway 09. Pure VOR to VOR followed by an ILS landing,only using the FMC to tune the NAV radios is certainly possible in the 747, but not recommended at your current level of knowledge. Learn to do it in the Cessna, then you will understand what the FMC is doing for you, and you will be able to spot and correct issues before they become problems. To answer your specific question, tune NAV1 to BIG (115.10) and NAV2 to GWC(114.75) and from directly over Biggen Hill at 7000, fly on radial 277 for 26 miles. At this point, GWC should be 22 miles away. Start a descent to 6000 but do not go below it until you are 29miles from BIG (and 19 from GWC) at which point start a standard right turn to intercept the 001 radial from GWC, tune NAV1 to 109.5 for ILS on 9R or 110.3 for 9L (and/or set NDB as per chart). At D35 (miles from GWC) start a right turn until you are heading 92 degrees towards your chosen runway. You want to be at 3000, and on the correct heading while still 10 miles from touch down, descending to 2500 at D7.5 (7.5 miles from the transmiter you are tuned to). If you are ILS equipped, you should intercept the glide slope at 2500, 7.5 miles from touch down and you can follow it all the way in. I don't think Heathrow allows visual approaches in real life. The question I think you meant to ask is "What should I do next"? What I would do on this flight is before Top of Descent select the runway I want (ILS 09R) etc, then select one of the associated STARs that are offered (have your ND in plan mode so you can see if the STAR is appropriate) then remove discontinuities from the flight plan and check again that it is reasonable. After that, I can just let the FMC take me in to touch down.
All I can say to you both is a Wow! What helpful replies and what a wonderful knowledge hill to climb.........I'm going to stew over both answers and have a whale of a time hitting my pesky learning curve.In the meanwhile I took to heart the fact that most real life flights are guided in with radar vectors. Would I be sensible to install an ATC program and try flying under ATC instructions?With my grateful regards..................Cliff

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... Would I be sensible to install an ATC program and try flying under ATC instructions?
I would say not yet. Far and away the best ATC environment is the live online services such as VATSIM. The ATC in FSX is pretty poor and while add ons are better, they still leave a lot to be desired and all ATC services will still expect you have basic navigational skills and be comfortable using VORs, radials, DME's, localisers etc. It is quite a learning curve but well worth it and (in my opinion) very enjoyable. Check out the tutorial sections and missions in FSX as some of them are not bad. If memory serves, there are a couple of quite good cross channel flights in varying weather that cover all the basics pretty well. When you can do a night flight using VOR to VOR navigation without looking at the map and still land at the correct airport in a crosswind, then you can sniff at STARs, poo-poo INS and fail the FMC. Or so I have been told, I am not there yet :(

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Holy cow, 2.5nm spacing? That is less than a minute at 200kts. I am impressed.

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Holy cow, 2.5nm spacing? That is less than a minute at 200kts. I am impressed.
Well, is an aproximate calculation. 7.5 miles to touchdown since GS capture at 2500 feet is the standard procedure. Let's say the average ground speed of approaching aircraft is 150 kts in that final segment (just simplifying). That makes 150 nm per hour or 2.5 nm per minute, or what is the same: 4 aircraft in the glideslope at a time, the first one touching down, two in the glide itself and the fourth has just started the final descent.I presume that heavies (many at EGLL) have to go with more than 1 minute separation (wake vortex), but yes, something between 1 and 1.5 minutes can be the normal landing sequence at LHR on peak hours.Despite all that, go arounds caused by aircraft vacating the rwy too slow are quite limited in Heathrow as far as I have read.

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I have been told (unofficially) that pilots that cause go-arounds by being slow to leave the runway at Heathrow are reminded of their transgressions at every possible opertunity by other pilots, FOs, controllers, dispatchers etc. and on at least one occaision, an airline was advised to improve their training program if they wanted more favourable landing slots.

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I lived under the flight path of the 27's for many years at Clapham and yes it's a 90 second separation from 4am to 11pm non stop. I have timed it :-)And 4 on the glidepath is about right too. You can see the landing lights all the way up the G/S when the aircraft you are on turns and vacates.

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