FS2004 ATC and Terrain Avoidance

[brucek 38]

In my local area (near Denver, CO), I tried an ATC-controlled descent last night over the Rockies into Jeffco (BJC), my home airport in real flying. I got descended to 11,000, then while in descent told to ascend up to 12,000 (Climb and Maintain), then up and down several more times, until I got out of the mountains onto the plains where the ATC descent actually made sense (I was descended in steps down to the GS intercept altitude which actually exists on the 29R ILS). But as far a prediction of what terrain is ahead of you (and from that creating an MEA), it can't do that. Actually, info such as an MEA should be available for programming into the sim, however you'd need to be on an airway where the MEA is published I guess.But for $60, it's great! So it's different when I fly for real- but that's at $93 an hour and after $6-7,000 in flight training.... I can't even get the pre-flight run-up done for $60! :)Bruce.

[Geofa 108]

Absolutely-remeber the crash a few years ago in San Diego that killed a rock band-the learjet didn't bother to look at the departure requirements or terrain-took off and slammed into a mountain.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/Geofdog2.jpg

[KevinAu 441]

>Yes, good points. Just one comment...>>If ATC gives you an approach descent below the MEA for>where you're at don't do it!>>Actually it's pretty common to get assigned altitudes below>MEA, at least here in the mountainous west. The controllers>have MVA's (minimum vectoring altitudes) overlayed on their>scopes. Since these are defined by small area sectors instead>of airways, they can be considerably lower than the>corresponding MEA in areas where the terrain height changes>rapidly over a small area. Since pilots don't usually have>access to MVA maps, this really is a case where you are mostly>relying on the controller to provide terrain separation.>>DanHowever, if you fly outside of the US, say to Mexico, the controllers there WILL clear you to altitudes that will make you part of the terrain. It is the pilot's responsibility for terrain clearance even if IFR in most other countries. We have it way too easy here.

[Guest]

Last night I flew an IFR flight to an airport west of the Rockies (sorry I forgot which) in the Learjet. I purposely made the weather there real bad so I can test out the turbulence and practice landing in bad weather. Anyway, visibility was about 2 miles and I couldnt see nothing. ATC vectored me to the wrong heading for the runway, about 1nm left of it. So I declared missed approach and ATC turns me around. Next thing I know I see a huge mountain in front of me coming out of the fog/rain, and ATC tells me to climb to 13000ft. I coulda sworn my Learjet shaved the grass on that hill. I think it needs a bit more work (-:

[Guest]

Dan:Thanks for that info - probably I should have said "approach descent below a safe altitude" instead of "below the MEA".Bill

[Guest]

Stamatis:>>I find it very strange that it has been totally untouched in the otherwise extensive Avsim Review...<

[DJ 0]

In Canada, the pilot is responsible for obstacle clearance at all times EXCEPT when radar vectored. During vectors, ATC is responsible for obstacle clearance. We usually get radar vectors within 20 NM all the way to final approach.Danny

[Guest AV8RFOOL]

I wonder if it was Aspen as I mentioned in my above post. If you are vectored to the wrong runway end at this airport, you will definitely encounter terra firma. I bet the ski operators enjoyed your gardening services. :-lolAV8RFOOL

[Guest Stamatis]

No, you were perfectly right Dan. In the real world, once vectoring begins it is not at all uncommon to be instructed to descend below the published MEA on the STAR, while still being on the published Arrival routing. In fact it is very common.MEA's are there to be adhered to in case of radio failure, or when flying in non-radar enviroment.And this talk about the "pilot being responsible blah, blah" is fine and legally correct, but the ATC is also not supposed nor expected to issue altitude clearances... into the ground. ATC is there to help you, not destroy you. Even legally, if an ATC instruction, God forbid, clears an aircraft into a mountain, rest assured that there will be very serious legal repercussions for the ATController.So, when we talk specifically about how ATC performs in FS2004 I really find the comments as to who is responsible for avoiding controlled flight into terrain irrelevant, with all due restect :-)Nobody here is trying to badmouth FS2004, we all love it and is our favorite sim. But the topic of this thread is how well does FS2004 ATC performs, not how good is the... pilot :-)Stamatis