In response to all the GREED post's

[Guest danowat]

Hi,I have had it, this last few days I have been nauseated by the amount of post's predicting that simming will die because some people are now seeking rembursment for the HARD work they put into making add-ons.It seems that people think that everything should be free because it is a hobby, ##### are you all on about, to all these people, you are a bunch of freeloaders, you can't stand to think of actually having to pay for something, I appreciate the hard work that goes into some of these creations, and these people should be rewarded for there contrubitions to the hobby.I am sad because this will be the last day I will frequent these forums, I have had it will the whole community.I would like to thank all of the freeware producer's, they have keep me going through out FS2002 with there marvellous creations, if you decide to go payware, then as long as your creations warrant it I wish you the best of luck.I would like to thank all of the payware producers, you keep raising the bar with all of your great add-ons.I would also like to thank all the people how have helped me out over the last couple of years, it has been much appreciated.I hope that I have added something to the community in my time, be it through the little advice I have tried to give, or my small repaints that I have enjoyed doing.On a final note, to all those moaning about payware add-ons, I look foward to your FREE creations in the future.Thanks to you all,I sincerely hope the community does not disappear up its own backside, due to the inane rantings of a few.Dan

[Guest Ashleigh Davidson]

I take it then, you would not agree there are some who are attempting to wring the maximum amount of cash out of the hapless public. Easy, but on the whole wrong.Community, does not charge, community shares. Many times the death throws of freeware have been upon us. Everytime it's bounced back.It's not a community in the sense of the word but more like an extention of Ebay, the difference is, you dont bid. It's not a case of freeloading for everything, after all you takes your pick and pays your buck. In many ways, it's the fact that once members of a sharing community, have now used or are attempting to use, the very same people from wence they came. If they are legitimate a business, OK, but I doubt if many of the newly minted developers are. Should the case be they are. They have no right to use these FREE forums for promotion. Use the front pages where they can PURCHASE advertising, one of the factors that keeps this FREE forum and FREE sharing library available to thousands of FREEWARE files where the FREELOADERS can obtain what every takes the fancy.Lets see how many pop up with once freeware creations, once real business kicks in with all the cost's and taxes ect associated. At least then knowing Tom's thoughts, Avsim will not be by pay per entry. This being due to it's new revenue stream created by all these new commercial companys advertising.Would you like me to continue as to why, we (we, as in the community we) have created this situation ? In the meanwhile Bye bye Dan, hope your credit card does not get burnt in the process. I hear the latest Tomb Raider is quiet good.Ash "Freeloader" Davidson PS, if this post echo's,it's because I'm up my own backside.

[Guest wathomas777]

Well said. No one talked about freeloading in FS98 or before. When everyone was downloading beautiful (for the time) Flight Shop models and having nearly every airplane ever built with every livery imaginable. No one mentioned compensation.Hey, I have nothing against payware. I buy it. I just recently bought 20 planes from Abacus. Some are pretty garbagy, some are great.Here's my big issue with some of the "payware" out there. Make sure it is your own work. If you make a freeware payware kit, make sure that the work is entirely yours. I recently saw a "developer" package a freeware plane with a payware panel. This was done with the permission of the freeware developer, but was then marketed as a "package". Folks who read the fine print found out the plane was freeware. Yet most people thought their hard earned money went for a plane AND panel, not a panel, with a freeware plane attached.If you want to profit from your labor, make sure it is your labor. That's all I ask. There are plenty of developers who provide great amounts of work and deserve compensation should they ask. Just as it is wrong to paint every developer as a "greedy money hungry ####", it's equally wrong to paint anyone who voices concern over the trend in our community as a "freeloader".www.flightsim.com went to a pay model to get "preferred access" It works and it doesn't. Many have come to Avsim because of it.I appreciate Tom providing a free forum for us to all gather and share ideas. If Tom decided he had to start "charging" for access. Would I be disappointed? Yes, Would I express my dissapointment? Yes, Would that make me a freeloader? NO.I sometimes do not understand this community. And it's not the flight sim community as a whole, but rather, seems limited to the Microsoft and Fly community.When I had Pro Pilot 99, the forum there was a friendly confines to just relax. There was no add-ons for the game, there was no "freeware" or "payware". No acrid cries of piracy. Just easy livin. If a person expressed a concern, he was not told. "Your machine sucks, you need to upgrade!!!!". Since PP99 looked best with Voodoo cards, many people were directed to the place where they could get a fine 3dfx card for cheap. Very congenial. We did have our spats, but for the most part, everyone was cordial and understanding.The same held true for the Flight Unlimited forum. Very much like the days of early flight sim. Add-Ons were prolific and not one mention of payware or shareware.But in this forum, it's completely different. If you ask to get paid for your work, you are a money grabber, if you are upset at all the payware out there, you are an ingrate. If you mention that something is wrong with FS2004, you are either a troll, or your hardware sucks. If you don't mention anything wrong with FS2004 and think everything is great, then you are nothing more than a company mouthpiece.For crying out loud guys. Is that what this forum has come to. Various factions of people trying to outshout the other.If that's the case, then I'll switch forums. I may not fly Pro Pilot anymore, but that forum is still active and still fits like a glove. I'll leave the bickering to you all.Best Regards,

[maxter 0]

"I take it then, you would not agree there are some who are attempting to wring the maximum amount of cash out of the hapless public. Easy, but on the whole wrong."I have yet to see a shareware or payware developer/producer grab you by the throat and force you, nay wring your wallet to buy their product.This is just arrant nonsense. I share Dan's frustration. If you can't afford the hobby (in whatever form it takes) it may be time to find another one. Maybe something cheap like rebuilding motor/race cars. I'm sure there are many there who give of their abundant free time and equipment. Maybe a free turbo, cam, header, roll cage, paint etc. etc. Could get lucky...Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern AustraliaIntel Pentium IV 3.0GHz (800FSB) Socket 478 pins CPU w/Hyper-Thread Technology MSI 875P NEO FIS2R, AGP 8X, i875P ICH5R Chipset with Gigiabit LanKingmax 512MB PC3200 Double Data Rate (DDR) RAM CAS-2.5- 400MHz Rated x 2BUILT By ATI (Original) Radeon 9800PRO w/TV Out & DVI 128Meg DDRTEAC DV-W50E, 4x DVD-R/ 2x RW, 16xCD-R, 8xCD-RW, 16xDVD, 32x CD-ROM Internal Drive Only Western Digital Raptor 36.0GB HDD IDE, 8MB Cache, 5.2ms, 10,000rpm , S-ATA, w/DataLifeguard WD 40Gig HD for dataATX 470W Pentium IV Power Supply CESkyhawk Jupiter Aluminum CaseHyundai -ImageQuest P910 , 19" Multi-Scan Digital MonitorHercules Game Theater XP, 6.1 speakers Dolby

[Guest Ashleigh Davidson]

Easy livin, great I like it ! Whats happened ?The piece about the panel and the plane ? There have been AT LEAST TWO OF THOSE in the last few weeks, now that's pure greed and an attempt to hoodwink the buying public.It's come to something when even the freeware designers are bawled out and insulted because a rivet's missing.The rest of what you say regarding company mouth pieces is spot on. It would be interesting to see, how many of these company people have paid for product. Had it been the case if I was a (shhhh) BT, I would be very offended that my efforts and reports had not been taken into consideration. In the end it reflects on my ability to (shhh) BT.There again, it could be there are dark forces operating with an agenda, but my Doctor says I'm not paranoid. His prescription was a new Dell twin Pentium doobrie, which I declined as it could lead to severe addiction and the GSU was not powerful enough.Oh happy days.Ash

[Guest Ashleigh Davidson]

Here we go.So you know what I can and cant afford ? I think you would be somewhat surprised if you knew.So again, if Tom is reading this, please open a forum were the bigheads with the big specs can all discuss what they've bought today and how it gave them "The thrill" on clicking buy now. Imagine in good old Aussie banter, "strewth mate, how was it for you, it reminded me of that Sheila from the billabong the first time".Yawn.....time for tubby bye bye's.AD PS latest hobby is a 1972 Lamborghini Muira to sit next to it's cousin, the Espada.

[Guest SoarPics]

Seems a few folks are conviently ignoring the other kind of greed that has gripped this hobby... the greed of wanting everything for free. That's the greed that makes it seem OK to expect authors and creators to give of their many, many hours without any form of compensation.Fact of the matter is that it takes alot longer to create a package for today's sim than it did to make something for FS98. We still want the very best quality, but some folks don't give a thought to how much time, money, and energy "top quality" add-ons require.And some add-ons aren't worth the price they're asking. Simple solution is don't buy them... and don't buy anything if you so choose. Nothing wrong with that.But to expect authors to continue to devote so much of themselves for high quality for free is more than a little selfish. It's greedy.Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to slip into my Nomex suit. Let the flaming begin...:-beerchug

[Ed 0]

My main concern is why programs were released as freeware for FS2002 and then when FSCoF comes out, they become payware. To me this really rings of greed.Ed

[Guest allcott]

Yes, agreed, greed goes more than one way. But I do think there is a point to the question about why a freeware product, once it crosses the threshold into moolah land should be treated the same way as the freeware product was. Should they not have (and PAY for) their own forum, away from this one and supported directly by the authors? Why should they continue to receive applause, and even advice and guidance from the rest of the community, in this forum or elsewhere? Why are files adding to or correcting those products even available through Avsim library unless the product itself is available from the Avsim shop?Perhaps (and this is contentious but that's the way things are going) those who are able to offer technical advice and guidance to their fellow simmers who are having trouble with the payware products should be able to receive financial remuneration for their time and effort if the original authors aren't quick or bright enough to resolve issues with their own product immediately?`Payware` goes more than one way too.AllcottNo fancy sigs, just words.

[Guest Speedbird1]

Firstly Dan, I think you are being a little bit premature with jacking anything in over a couple of posts about payware.People are entitled to air their views if they are not happy with something. Yes there are people that were shocked when Active Camera went payware and I think thats all it was, intial shock and nothing else.There is going to be a lot more payware in the future and I probably would not rule out your more popular online addons in the future from going down this route..It is true that there is no such thing as a "free lunch" anymore, the real danger is and it has been said in a post further up the thread about the quality of the product...by this I mean hoping the standard will not go down. I do not think anyone minds paying for it if is of good quality.Whilst there are experienced simmers who know who the good developers of payware are out there, equally there are a load of people who may not know and unknowingly for example purchase a piece of software and then, well you know the rest of the story. I think we may all have been down that road before in the past...Out of all the payware that is currently on the market,when do you ever see a really bad review on if it does not come up to scratch... Not often....

[Tabs 2,790]

What still completely baffles me here is that people think payware developers are actually getting rich off producing FS addons. I don't think you have any idea how small the FS addon market actually is. (even compared to the total number of FS owners)When was the last time you heard about Lou Betti driving around in his Ferrari bought with Dreamfleet proceeds, Pete Dowson climbing into his Gulfstream bought with FSUIPC sales, or Serge Baye opening the door to his new mansion courtesy of Active Camera 2004?? Guess what, it's not happening folks. The "greed" that you speak of is simply a desire to be compensated for what amounts to years (decades if you count combined work of all team members) of hard work - time that was spent away from these programmers' real jobs and families while they created things that some you demand they give away for free. Yes, that is the very definition of freeloading. Anyone who DEMANDS freeware from developers and attempts to stigmatize and devalue payware developers for deeming their work is worthy of a fee *is* a freeloader. In fact, if you really think about it, this attitude sounds a whole heck of a lot like Communism. "Watch as the freeloading proletariat rises to claim what's theirs." Beautiful - excuse me while I puke. Apparently it's only half Communism though, because you all thought FS itself was worth paying for - you thought the computer you're running it on was worth money too. How about the house/appartment you're sitting in simming? Why does an aircraft/scenery/utility developer's work hold no value for you then? Why do you think you are entitled to one piece of the equation, but you'll gladly pay for the others?This is a capitalist market economy folks - if someone deems their work worthy of a fee and wants to start a business around it, they are perfectly free to and justified in doing so. I can't believe people would dare try to pull this guilt trip on developers for deciding their work is worth something. Yes, it's a hobby, but just about anything else in this world can be too. Real flying can be a hobby - would you put down a pilot who decides to start an airline? Are you entitled to free flights for all of eternity because at one time he/she might have given free rides? Would you seriously turn down the chance to be paid for something that you truly love doing? My other main hobby is music - if someone from a record company came to one of my band's shows and offered us a recording deal, you don't think I would jump at the chance? No way in hell would I turn that down simply because it's just a hobby at this point in my life.If you don't like it, it's very simple - DON'T BUY IT. If you think the addons are so essential to your hobby, then buy them. (which I suspect many of the peope complaining already have done or will do in the future) If "all" the developers are going payware, maybe that's a sign to *you*, the non-developer, that maybe you don't actually have a clue as to the amount of work that is going into creating these products.The fact also remains that if you know who the truly good payware developers are, there is NO WAY you'll find freeware aircraft panels in particular, that are anywhere near what can be made by a company that can afford the development effort. Please, I beg of the freeware diehards - show me a freeware panel that comes anywhere close to 767PIC. Show me a working FMC in a freeware panel. (please note the word "working") Show me freeware GDI+ gauges that look anything like Reality XPs or PMDGs. As for payware packages that include a "freeware" aircraft model like the SSW A310, as long as they didn't STEAL it and the freeware developer agreed and was paid for it, then what the heck is the problem??? Is it a subpar model simply because it was derived from freeware? Let me tell you, if anyone ever does a new payware 777, I'd be THRILLED to see a modified Meljet model married to an awesome panel/VC. Same goes for a new 737 classic, I'd be very pleased to see FFX do the visual model for something like that. Apparently though, some of you would think it's the same thing as the freeware version (evidently because you don't actually fly the airplane from the panel, but just look at it) and cry foul that the developer is greedy and getting rich from a freeware model.Have fun whining and demanding folks - I've said enough at this point in these threads to get my point across to everyone it's intended for.Ryan

[Guest tascaso]

I think that the greed posts are minimal at best. Yes this is a time when one thinks that going into business is wonderful thing and more power to them .... hope they make tons of bucks.Its tough out there in the market place and I think that for the most part these folks feel that if they had a ton of loadloads for their free stuff then they can tag a $$$ sign or Euro sign on and collect big time. Well it may not happen. Lets just sit back and see how long some of this payware remains just that or we will see it turn into freeware again.The market will take care of itself...if no one buys the payware it will become freeware.Remember nothing is forever.Tony

[Guest Ashleigh Davidson]

Allcot, Actually, it's not contentious at all, but a true reflection. Left alone, this trend could well go the way you suggest, where in the end it will collapse. The term ever decreasing circles comes to mind. To add fuel to the fire, what's next a premium line number for support?Overall, I'm a little miffed at the attitude taken by some commercial outfits regarding the gravy train COF is rapidly becoming. Statements such as "well it was never designed for this version", OK true enough, but they knew it was coming ? Did it stop them releasing a piece of software they had no idea would work or not in later versions? Dont think so, but they took your money. Then have the cheek to ask you to pay again 3 months later for the privilage or should it be their mistake in bad business planning. How arrogant is that ? Microsoft offer service packs free, sure I had to buy it first, but the service provided, I payed for in the initial purchase. Now at this point we could get contentious. I'd put a Nomex suit on also but It seems they're all being used.Ash freeloader

[Guest Ashleigh Davidson]

As happened with a certain pice of software not too long ago. I believe it's part of COF now ?

[Guest]

Well said, Greg. Not so long ago I wrote to a freeware developer to thank him for a product so darned good that I would gladly have paid for it, had it been on sale, and he told me that in some 5,000 downloads noone else had bothered to show any appreciation. Greed is the only word.