[/i]The best aircraft noise is that from an aircraft with the engines off.

I completely disagree!!!!!vololiberista

Hmm, so, what you're saying is that the UK (one of the world's biggest economies and industries) is now stuck with what they currently have?

For the foreseeable future yes, as far as London airports are concerned there will be no new runways. Plans to increase the number of flights at London-City are being challenged in the Courts.

BTW, mgh, I know what you're saying about the guy in the aerobatic aircraft, but I just don't understand why people would get upset at something that is normal and legal :(

Because having an aircraft droning over head for hours on a summer's day is as upsetting as any other sort of noise would be. Even more so because there are limits on the noise motor vehicles can generate and, even, on the noise your neighbours can generate playing music. But there are none on aircraft. In the UK private flying is seen as just another hobby and people object to being disturbed by someone amusing himself.I am sure there are "normal and legal activities" that you would object to - motor-cycles in low gear accelerating and decelerating up and down outside your house for hours on end in the quiet of the evening?

For the foreseeable future yes, as far as London airports are concerned there will be no new runways. Plans to increase the number of flights at London-City are being challenged in the Courts."In the UK private flying is seen as just another hobby and people object to being disturbed by someone amusing himself."That statement is exactly why the flying public needs to be educated. "General Aviation (GA) is a vital component of the aviation sector and the national economy that accounts for some 77 percent of all flights in the United States. It encompasses a wide range of activities, from pilot training to flying for business and personal reasons, delivery of emergency medical services, sightseeing, crop operations. Operations range from short-distance flights in single-engine light aircraft to long-distance international flights in corporate-owned 'wide-bodies,' and from emergency aero-medical helicopter operations to airships seen at open-air sporting events. The sole characteristic that General Aviation operations have in common is that flights are not routinely scheduled; they are on-demand.General aviation accounts for three-quarters of all aircraft that take off and land in the United States. These aircraft encompass a wide range of flight operations at nearly 19,000 general aviation airportsnationwide. According to the National Air Transportation Association, the general aviation industry contributes about $100 billion to the U.S. economy each year and accounts for about 1.3 million jobs".This came from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...al-aviation.htm but gells pretty much with the stats I have read elsewhere.I could add much more-for instance-when you go down in any aircraft in the US-it will be the Civil Air Patrol that will be doing search and rescue for you in their pesky little Ga airplanes.It is convenient to lump all Ga flying as people with a hobby amusing themselves-but that is simply not the case.The same could be said for those going on a commercial flight-I am sure a lot of them are amusing themselves going on a nice trip somewhere.By the way-I happen to live close by a major auto highway. I am not thrilled by the noise from it but knew what I was going into when I bought my house. I am sure a lot of those cars that go by are driving to "amuse themselves", and there is always the potential that the highway will need to be expanded even more in the future. I don't particularly like the noise-but accept it as a fact of modern day life, and also made the choice to move from the country where there was no noise to where I am now for the convenience...and I love the sound of an airplane engine..any type. It is just another signal that what man has been wishing for since the beginning of time, is now our priviledge to experience. That sound is just another confirmation that someone has just done just that-what a beautiful sound!

That statement is exactly why the flying public needs to be educated.

I don't dispute your facts but General Aviation is is wider than Private Flying to which I refered specifically. The UK's British Business and General Aviation Association assumes GA covers "all aeroplane and helicopter flying except that performed by the major airlines and the Armed Services" Here, GA as a whole is estimated to contribute about

I don't dispute your facts but General Aviation is is wider than Private Flying to which I refered specifically. The UK's British Business and General Aviation Association assumes GA covers "all aeroplane and helicopter flying except that performed by the major airlines and the Armed Services" Here, GA as a whole is estimated to contribute about

During takeoff, more noise is generated due to use of full or close to full power. The use of this amount of power for takeoff extends past the runway. You have asked why not use 27 instead of 29 and they are using 27, especially for the noisiest part of flight evolution. Sure, there is noise from the thrust reversers, but it does not last near anywhere near as long as. Heck, even the C-5 that flies around here is never heard when landing even though you can hear it take off, even from approximately 900-1000 meters away.

as you have already said any kind of runway ops will lead to noise to population somewhere or the other. also you pointed out there is relatively higher settlement below 27 path, indicating during eastward flow r09 takeoff is max interfering but understandable as it doesnot have ils. but during westward flow both 27 and 29 offer ils, is it so hard to switch between the two on alternate nights to distribute the impact?

The UK has a similar rule:Aerobatic manoeuvres

15 An aircraft shall not carry out any aerobatic manoeuvre:

(a) over the congested area of any city, town or settlement; or

(b) within controlled airspace except with the consent of the appropriate air traffic control unit

UPDATE: The aerodrome has denied it could have happened and said it has noise abatement procedures in place. THe created a response on the line of "it did ****-well happen - are you calling us liars?" - although more politely phrased. I checked the procedures which in full are:

Runway 29 Noise Abatement Routeing: After take-off, turn right to overfly the golf club house and on passing, turn to runway QDM until passing prominent white building (School). Turn right to fly to a square wood (approximately 0.5 mile), then turn downwind to fly between Tewin and Tewin Wood.

They are irrelevant to the complaint.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

as you have already said any kind of runway ops will lead to noise to population somewhere or the other. also you pointed out there is relatively higher settlement below 27 path, indicating during eastward flow r09 takeoff is max interfering but understandable as it doesnot have ils. but during westward flow both 27 and 29 offer ils, is it so hard to switch between the two on alternate nights to distribute the impact?

I wasn't aware that an ILS is needed for takeoffs. Maybe it should be called Instrument Takeoff System instead?

..and I love the sound of an airplane engine..any type. It is just another signal that what man has been wishing for since the beginning of time, is now our priviledge to experience. That sound is just another confirmation that someone has just done just that-what a beautiful sound!

The ONLY contender for four Rolls Royce Conway jets (as heard in this video clip)

are four Rolls Royce Merlins Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!more...more...more...more...more...more..................!vololiberista

I wasn't aware that an ILS is needed for takeoffs. Maybe it should be called Instrument Takeoff System instead?

I don't have UT2 so I cannot check via that way. If there are about 60 flights between say midnight and 6:00AM, that is on average 10 minutes between landings, I suppose you could fit take-offs in between them, but that could delay take-offs, especially if the flights landing are not exactly every 10 minutes. There may be a time when no landings are happening at all when the other runway could be shut down, but without actually seeing the frequency of flights and when the peak time is overnight, I cannot say if closing down or alternating runways is possible. I did check the airports website for arrivals and found some landing (I didn't check every city from which planes could be coming from mind you) around 3AM to take off not long after that which also means, if landings are occuring every 10 minutes on average, then there are likely the same number of take-offs at approximately the same frequency.

A few years back there was a big stink because of noise levels at KTOL - Toledo Express Airport. It has rather sparse commuter traffic. Turbo props, an occasional CRJ or ERJ during the day plus the Air National Guard's F-16s (WOW!). From evening to past daylight the place comes to life as a cargo hub. 727s, 767s, DC-8s, and an 747 every now and then. Well the local residents picked up on the news about noise complaints being filed here and there around the world, so they formed a group and sued the county and city. Their intent was to get the city and county to provide them with relocation and new homes. Bear in mind the folks had lived around the airport for from fifteen to fifty years. The mayor, being very short tempered as always, and never one to bother with sensitivity, stormed into court and threw this proposal on the table; The complaining residents would swap houses with people who are hearing impaired. (making it clear that it was the only offer, the only choice and not open to discussion.) Please note that I 'sanitized' the wording. The uproar was louder than the airport noise. In the last ten years since then the complainers got quiet and the only thing that has changed much was the name on the mayor's office door. After he got voted out by a huge margin he actually ran again and got elected again. I suppose the voters liked someone who had no problem saying what they were thinking or not thinking and saying something anyway!BTW I live in a suburb town - different mayor - thank goodness. I thought I would supply this little story just to show how strange the issue can get. "Airport noise? Not a problem! Just populate the airport surroundings with deaf people! Problem solved!" Please remember that did not come from me.Seriously. It is a very complex issue and very difficult to find a balance point that will benefit everyone.Regards to all,Mel

I used to live 5nm down range from rwy 09R at London Heathrow and so was under the take off path of about 40% of flights. I can tell you that every time Concorde took off everybody would come out of their houses and watch it. Bear in mind that the after burners were still on so it was quite a crackling sound! :-) On average most aircraft would take about 2 minutes or more from lift off to pass over my house. Concorde however would average less than one minute!!!!!!! What a sight it was :-) nobody minded the fact that all the windows shook, car alarms being set off etc.!!vololiberista

I used to live 5nm down range from rwy 09R at London Heathrow and so was under the take off path of about 40% of flights. I can tell you that every time Concorde took off everybody would come out of their houses and watch it. Bear in mind that the after burners were still on so it was quite a crackling sound! :-) On average most aircraft would take about 2 minutes or more from lift off to pass over my house. Concorde however would average less than one minute!!!!!!! What a sight it was :-) nobody minded the fact that all the windows shook, car alarms being set off etc.!!vololiberista

Then why did the Government's official Working Group on Noise from Air Traffic say:"It is the Working Group's opinion that the noise levels recorded at Heathrow during Concorde's flight endurance programme were intolerable to the community"and"The Working Group consider it is unreasonable to ask the community to tolerate the increased disturbance from Concorde without being offered some form of alleviation in return..." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3581192.stm

I don't have UT2 so I cannot check via that way. If there are about 60 flights between say midnight and 6:00AM, that is on average 10 minutes between landings, I suppose you could fit take-offs in between them, but that could delay take-offs, especially if the flights landing are not exactly every 10 minutes. There may be a time when no landings are happening at all when the other runway could be shut down, but without actually seeing the frequency of flights and when the peak time is overnight, I cannot say if closing down or alternating runways is possible. I did check the airports website for arrivals and found some landing (I didn't check every city from which planes could be coming from mind you) around 3AM to take off not long after that which also means, if landings are occuring every 10 minutes on average, then there are likely the same number of take-offs at approximately the same frequency.

a single runway can handle landings of 3min-5min gaps and fit a takeoff or two between them. Looking at this md-11 vacating in seconds I guess there's a lot of time to spare at night between landings for takeoffs.

current vidp ops require a min gap of 2min between landings. even 5min landing gap makes for 12 arrivals per hour, a fifth of total night traffic.even though many intl airlines arrive their traffic isnt much as they have mostly two and fro flights one per day, no intl connections, some big one like dlh, sia, uae operate two one of which gets into day slot. same applies to cargo traffic, all one per day except fdx md-11 arriving twice but both during day. so if you add up all the airlines in the list its like abt 80 for a whole day. also your observation abt frequency is right, most planes takeoff after 2hrs of dock on average.intl part of air india doesnt have much traffic here, you can get an idea from aig air india ttools timetable.from ut2 distribultion night traffic is fairly uniform until 6am. also back before 2006 when airport only used single runway 10/28 for all operations 24hrs it managed all with 3min landings and takeoffs fit between them. The traffic ofcourse was not that high as today but just to give an idea of single runway capacity.