... This is going to dissappoint almost everyone on this forum, but MS is after the bucks, and the masses just want to fly with a mouse and a couple of keyboard commands. They don't care about sids, stars, ILS approaches, technically correct communications, and all that like. Just give them the candy with no thought needed, and you have a winner for the masses. See the whole world in detail without any pain at all ! And with almost everything stripped out, it will fly as smooth as silk on even any Walmart machine hooked up to a broadband connection.

I agree totally. It's my opinion that one of the key reasons for dropping FSNext was that Microsoft realised that ACES were adding more and more features which were only of interest to fewer and fewer enthuiasts, and had lost sight of market reality. The Flight Simulator franchise cannot survive on sales to enthusiasts. Flight has to sell in large numbers of non-enthusiasts to be viable.

There's no reason that a well designed game can't be easy for new people and challenging and realistic as well. If this were coming out for a console I would be worried based on the controller limitations, but on PC I think there's hope. They can sell to both crowds equally. How many people are really going to buy a scaled down flying game? If it is so simple that you can figure it out in 10 minutes, what's the point? I play a golf game on console (TW11) and it does a great job of catering to the arcade fans and the hardcore sim players. On easy you can boom the ball out there 400 yards and control it in mid-air! Play on the realistic mode and you can only aim your shots with a camera view from the tee and only hit the ball realistically. Same game, two totally different groups enjoying it. FS already has some options for things like this. Most of us just turned them off years ago :)

There's no reason that a well designed game can't be easy for new people and challenging and realistic as well. If this were coming out for a console I would be worried based on the controller limitations, but on PC I think there's hope. They can sell to both crowds equally.

That is true provided the budgetary constraints permit it. However, when push comes to shove and decisions have to be made about what features can be included the decision will be heaviliy influenced by the the effects on sales and revenue. If feature A is attractive to the general gaming public and feature B is attractive to the enthusiasts but feature A will result in greater sales, guess which will be chosen?I guess one thing that Microsoft has a very good idea about is Flight's selling price, which will determine how much can be spent on developing it.

I’m curious how many businesses can turn their back on 2million customers.Gamble on an absolutely new genre, selling stuff people already have to folks that really don’t care.Look into it that's what you'll find :)‘You take basic flying, add the whole world and an online tileproxy server, maybe DX11 and 3-D support, maybe basic take off and landing, and you have a product that will appeal to a whole lot of people.’A person has got to really-really have a finger on the pulse of the comic-book/action movie/video-game buying consumer to see why this cliffhanger would outsell FSX.An executive producer would say, “Great work Jenkins, now why not adjust your design to keep the 2million fans we’ve already got?’ :)I don’t mean to offend because it's a reasonable comment, but it classically underestimates how damn hard it is to make a profit.It’s combat game-play that’s the gulf between us and them.The problem is pure flying combat games have long been considered a poor risk for big publishers.Making a game like Battlefield is the only way FS can break through that ceiling.Well MS already has Halo.And these things cost mega-bucks - on a totally different magnitude than FS - and there is a remarkably low chance of success.FS is firmly wedge where it is.For now, the only thing they can do is grow the audience...we’re taking 10-20% max...from aviation fans that have been intimidated so far.That said, MS should seriously consider adding combat..yes FS already has a huge amount of game play for people that get it.But adding more won’t hurt. IMO add-on developers will bring combat to the table regardless.

I’m curious how many businesses can turn their back on 2million customers.Gamble on an absolutely new genre, selling stuff people already have to folks that really don’t care.‘You take basic flying, add the whole world and an online tileproxy server, maybe DX11 and 3-D support, maybe basic take off and landing, and you have a product that will appeal to a whole lot of people.’A person has got to really-really have a finger on the pulse of the comic-book/action movie/video-game buying consumer to see why this cliffhanger would outsell FSX.An executive producer would say, “Great work Jenkins, now why not adjust your design to keep the 2million fans we’ve already got?’  :)It’s combat game-play that’s the gulf between us and them.The problem is pure flying combat games have long been considered a poor return on investment for big publishers.Making a game like Battlefield is the only way FS can break through that ceiling.Well MS already has Halo. And these things cost mega-bucks - not like FS.FS is firmly wedge where it is.The only thing they can do is grow the audience...we’re taking 10-15% max...from aviation fans that have been intimidated so far.However MS, should seriously consider adding combat..yes FS already has a huge amount of game play for people that get it. But adding more won’t hurt. IMO add-on developer will bring combat to the table regardless.

I am sorry .. i could really follow this post.   I think you are saying that MS shouldn't release a new flight sim and just take care of the current versions and customer base.  Also, i think you are saying add combat if  MS "must" release new Flight sim.Business models are built on profitable growth.. how does holding the status quo help Microsoft meet this objective.  No business operates solely on taking care of its customer base.  The customer service is done as a means to continue to sale new product and services.

I’m curious how many businesses can turn their back on 2million customers.

The enthusiast community (read, hard-core simmers who purchase 3rd party addons and visit AVSIM and other forums) can be counted about 50,000 people, maybe less. MS sells several million copies of each FS franchise release, but over 95% of those customers never, ever purchase addons for the basic sim, or even apply the SP1/SP2 patches. A lot of customers get it as gifts from family and invariably FS becomes shelfware along with countless other games bought at Christmas time etc.There would be very, very few 3rd party addons which have sold more than 15,000 units, perhaps maybe a handful. MS is not targeting this new game at us (the community or developers), but at a global, casual gamer audience who want to be captivated from the first 5 minutes and probably have a very simple, fun and visually pleasing experience. (Think about how many zillions of copies of Pilotwings Nintendo sold). Don't see this as a slap in the face to the hard-core community, but more akin to a Valve, Bungie or EA releasing a title designed to move units, not appeal to the level modders. MS is a business, and we'll see a business-driven focus in any future releases, of that I have no doubt.Of course, we are also the most vocal of their customers and feel "closer" to MS as a result, but the cold hard fact are this: they are catering for a different audience with this release, and that can easily be determined from their press release language.

The enthusiast community (read, hard-core simmers who purchase 3rd party addons and visit AVSIM and other forums) can be counted about 50,000 people, maybe less. MS sells several million copies of each FS franchise release, but over 95% of those customers never, ever purchase addons for the basic sim, or even apply the SP1/SP2 patches. A lot of customers get it as gifts from family and invariably FS becomes shelfware along with countless other games bought at Christmas time etc.There would be very, very few 3rd party addons which have sold more than 15,000 units, perhaps maybe a handful. MS is not targeting this new game at us (the community or developers), but at a global, casual gamer audience who want to be captivated from the first 5 minutes and probably have a very simple, fun and visually pleasing experience. (Think about how many zillions of copies of Pilotwings Nintendo sold). Don't see this as a slap in the face to the hard-core community, but more akin to a Valve, Bungie or EA releasing a title designed to move units, not appeal to the level modders. MS is a business, and we'll see a business-driven focus in any future releases, of that I have no doubt.Of course, we are also the most vocal of their customers and feel "closer" to MS as a result, but the cold hard fact are this: they are catering for a different audience with this release, and that can easily be determined from their press release language.

Relax guys .. Orbx comments actually apply to ALL flight sim releases of the past .. no change here!

I am sorry .. i could really follow this post.   I think you are saying that MS shouldn't release a new flight sim and just take care of the current versions and customer base.  Also, i think you are saying add combat if  MS "must" release new Flight sim.

Not at all, read again :)I’m saying MS will grow the existing audience by focusing on casual aviation enthusiasts.It's something they've done before with FS9, BTW.But ya, add combat...why not? The FSX SDK nearly provides for combat as is.It’ll boost sales into a new market no matter if it’s considered an anemic one (by some - it's growth).It’s not as big a request as it may appear...at least to open that door in the SDK.Add-on developers will run with it.

Business models are built on profitable growth.. how does holding the status quo help Microsoft meet this objective.  No business operates solely on taking care of its customer base.  The customer service is done as a means to continue to sale new product and services.

Again what games business throws away old customers for entirely new customers?That’s far too risky and expensive.You’re over estimating the ability of the so-called new casual audience to float this boat.John, of those 2million about all bought FS to learn something (even a little thing) of flying...(let's exclude the gifts if we can)It wasn't for the action and little to do with the pure distraction of say, Farmville.I'm just saying MS will leverage this idea - it's what the press release says.It comes down to some level of curiosity about flying.And that has nothing to do with whether you’re a hardcore-simmer - we all have it.I’m certain three quarters play only a few times...like most games.The idea is to grow the audience.That's why there's also a line in the press release for us about the fidelity of Flight.The two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive.The path with the least cost and best return is what they’ll choose, right?

What publishing company throws away old customers for new? I guess you never played Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon as developed by Red Storm Entertainment. All those gamers who loved those games for what they were were tossed aside as the new owner of the games moved to attract the more casual gamer. This including throwing out the playing as the team leader (in the case of GR, any of the up to 6 characters used in an SP mission) and playing as just a character who commands the other 2 or 3 team members compared to the 6-7 other team members. This does not mean that MS is doing it with Flight as they already stated that they intend to appeal to those of  us older customers. Only time will tell. Anything else is speculation until MS tells us what will be sold.

I would actually love to see combat introduced in to the sim - not as a focus but included in the missions. We have lots of great combat aircraft add ons but you can't do much with them other than fly. I would rather have combat missions than the missions that are currently included in FSX.I have ofter wondered why they don't release different versions of the sim tailored to different audiences. They give is Deluxe, Gold and Acceleration but for the most part, the differences between the versions are rather small. I would rather have a sim that is optimized for enthusiasts and developers than a bunch of default aircraft. I would pay more for a highly customizable blank canvas.

Not at all, read again :)I’m saying MS will grow the existing audience by focusing on casual aviation enthusiasts.It's something they've done before with FS9, BTW.But  ya, add combat...why not? The FSX SDK nearly provides for combat as is.It’ll boost sales into a new market no matter if it’s considered an anemic one (by some - it's growth).It’s not as big a request as it may appear...at least to open that door in the SDK.Add-on developers will run with it.Again what games business throws away old customers for entirely new customers?That’s far too risky and expensive.You’re over estimating the ability of the so-called new casual audience to float this boat.John, of those 2million about all bought FS to learn something (even a little thing) of flying...(let's exclude the gifts if we can)It wasn't for the action and little to do with the pure distraction of say, Farmville.I'm just saying MS will leverage this idea - it's what the press release says.It comes down to some level of curiosity about flying.And that has nothing to do with whether you’re a hardcore-simmer - we all have it.I’m certain three quarters play only a few times...like most games.The idea is to grow the audience.That's why there's also a line in the press release for us about the fidelity of Flight.The two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive.The path with the least cost and best return is what they’ll choose, right?

thanks for the clarity, and i agree ... one thing, however, MSFS has always focused on the casual audience.  I bet we, the enthusiasts, represent less than 1% of flight sim sales.

thanks for the clarity, and i agree ... one thing, however, MSFS has always focused on the casual audience.  I bet we, the enthusiasts, represent less than 1% of flight sim sales.

I totally agree...MSFS never went after the hard-core market it just sort of happened.They’ve always talked about the casual fans.And as a percentage of the total audience the AVSIM crowd is rather small.I remember very well at the AVSIM conference in Denver, waiting in line to ask an MS programmer a question.The guy in front of me asked some rather obscure question about traffic or weather.And the MS guy’s answer was, “You’re not our target audience.”I told him write that on the box, “Microsoft Flight Simulator, You’re not our target audience!”That message changed in AVSIM Seattle, the message became you’re not our target audience, but hard-core fans are our biggest asset.My interpretation of course :) But that was said more or less several times.There just isn’t enough information to draw good conclusions, so don’t worry my hat’s in hand ready to be eaten :)

Sounds like the story of the rock star shouting out the name of the wrong city.

At last some reality in these dicussions from Orbx, vwc, dmaher et al.We enthusiasts who visit the forums are not Microsoft's target market - there are just too few of us. Microsoft will be aiming at the much larger general gaming market because that's where the money is. Flight will be primarily tailored to that market with some features for the enthusiasts.It has long been my view the Microsoft disbanded ACES because it had lost sight of the market and was developing FSNext to meet the needs of the enthusiasts market. which is too small to be viable. (I also suspect that the botched release of FSX didn't help ACES.) As a reaction to that, Flight may swing further towards the general market than we would wish. The bottom line is that Microsoft, like any other successful company, will behave commercially in its own interests. It will set a budget for developing Flight which will limit the features that can be included and those features that will get priority will be those it believes will maximise sales and revenue. Muicrosoft will not waste money on any further work on FSX for similar reasons - it wouldn't earn any more revenue. whatever happens we can continue using FSX.

With Microsoft Flight now on the radar screen I've been thinking about my investment in FSX. Having recently made the switch from FS9 ro FSX exclusively I have already invested a kings ransom in re-purchasing many of the products that I already had in FS9 (thank G-d for companies like FS Dream Team that give you both products for the same price).

I am pretty sure my reaction will be with any FS version since FS4: I will buy it. So far I was never disappointed. Obviously, this times comes the compatibilty issue (or maybe not?). But we will see. Having now wife and children I have too little time to fly anyway. And too little money :-). So I (try to) restrict my FS expenditures to the lowest amount possible, which includes German Airports by Aerosoft and all PMDG releases and some 'nice to have' stuff like FlyTampa VHHX or St. Maarten. And yes, I am even willing to buy them again for Flight if necessary.BestPhil